Forums » The Dire Lord

DL: September news letter question

    • 27 posts
    November 7, 2019 1:42 PM PST

    Wig said: I would also add that warriors and paladins can wear shields which increases their AC immensely, so even more so will a DL want to stack hp. DL will possibly be hit harder than warriors and paladins, so they need to take the hit by having more stam.

     

    Your theorycrafting vs Devs and others who are testing all classes. If there was a disparity, it would of been address a while back. I think your worrying for no reason and at best trying to campaign for a bigger health pool. IMO, they may get that or may not if it isnt needed. I feel your worrying for no reason, Understand, when Alpha comes out and you can get in game, you will be in a position to give feedback that will gather their attention, right now I would not worry about it. I honestly look forward to hearing about your feedback on the forums come alpha, it sounds like your a big fan of DLs (SKs). 

  • Wig
    • 209 posts
    November 7, 2019 1:58 PM PST
    I appreciate your guys feedback :) I’m just a guy who has a lot of passion for pantheon and theorycrafting.
    • 61 posts
    November 7, 2019 2:21 PM PST

    We all have a strong passion for this game; or else we wouldn't be on the forums every day talking about a game that isn't even into alpha yet.  But the fact that some people are freaking out about something that goes against everything VR has said is commical.  That is all my point is.  Leave the worrying behind.  Talking about stats and the like is one thing - calling a class useless based on an astrnomically small amount of information is another.

    • 694 posts
    November 21, 2019 1:25 PM PST

    MauvaisOeil said:

    Darch said:

    Talint said:

    There is absolutely no way VR would allow a Tank in same level content to be one shot...  Absolutely not. 

    I promise players will be 1-shot at some point.  There is already pre-alpha footage of a DL being 1-shot by a trashmob because they used canopy of blood to sacrifice 25% of their HP at the same time the mob spiked on them (albeit pre-alpha).  Point being, when Bosses start quad hitting while simultaneously riposting and dodging/blocking/parrying/missing the DL's abysal strikes (and other self heals) their self healing does nothing to offset their low mitigation.  Lets not forget, the Paladin has self healing too... as well as both the Pal and Warrior can block/reflect spells with shields.  The DL's role will likely be to supplement the other tanks with things like Dire Mark as was mentioned and canopy of blood while NOT actually tanking.

     

    Don't you feel hypocritical because a player died of a bug multiplying chemical damage instead of having no effect to use it as an argument for "Direlord are oneshotted" ?

     

    Would a warrior have been hit by a similar bug, you wouldn't even have talked about it, because it's easier to strip something out of context for the pure sake of looking informed and ranting on the same subject for years.

    Not at all Mauv because it wasn't all damage from the chemical attack, it was the DL using canopy of blood that took 25% of his max health when he was already below 60-70% health as the healer was starting to heal, and the ability blocked 0 "chemical damage" because the ability only blocked magic damage... so in your theory, a warrior or paladin could've survived the attack (or at least had 25% more HP left than the DL).  If Canopy of blood didn't cost 25% of maximum HP (1,000 HP when you have 4k HP) or maybe worked against all non-physical damage, it wouldn't be as terrible as it is.  (If you watch the combat log, that chemical attack hit for about 3100).  

    Add: Furthermore, my point is that if there aren't encounters that one shot players, there will be absolutely no need to advance (get better gear or more levels), or even have a tank role if you can just buff up and equip any class to tank.

    Add#2:  Also, don't take the term one-shot "literal" - its a term used to identify a player taking damage too fast to recover from.  i.e. 20 NPCs hitting a player at the same time would "one-shot" them... even though in actuality it is more like 20 hits landing nearly simultaneously.

    And the devs have explicitly said that some tanks won't be as good as others; This has been said repeatedly.  And yes, shields do contribute to the reduction of damage to include some being able to reflect spells back at the caster. 


    This post was edited by Darch at November 22, 2019 9:52 AM PST
    • 1657 posts
    November 23, 2019 2:29 PM PST

    Darch said:

    Not at all Mauv because it wasn't all damage from the chemical attack, it was the DL using canopy of blood that took 25% of his max health when he was already below 60-70% health as the healer was starting to heal, and the ability blocked 0 "chemical damage" because the ability only blocked magic damage... so in your theory, a warrior or paladin could've survived the attack (or at least had 25% more HP left than the DL).  If Canopy of blood didn't cost 25% of maximum HP (1,000 HP when you have 4k HP) or maybe worked against all non-physical damage, it wouldn't be as terrible as it is.  (If you watch the combat log, that chemical attack hit for about 3100).  

    Add: Furthermore, my point is that if there aren't encounters that one shot players, there will be absolutely no need to advance (get better gear or more levels), or even have a tank role if you can just buff up and equip any class to tank.

    Add#2:  Also, don't take the term one-shot "literal" - its a term used to identify a player taking damage too fast to recover from.  i.e. 20 NPCs hitting a player at the same time would "one-shot" them... even though in actuality it is more like 20 hits landing nearly simultaneously.

    And the devs have explicitly said that some tanks won't be as good as others; This has been said repeatedly.  And yes, shields do contribute to the reduction of damage to include some being able to reflect spells back at the caster. 

     

    I just hope you're not refering to that video : https://youtu.be/H5cbeRIMIZw?t=1995

     

    Where using canopy of blood generated a bug changing the 34 chemical damage into 3434 chemical damage, which was more than his HP pool overall (his canopy costed 298 hp so his HP are meant to be 1192). If yes, well let's return to my previous post.

     

    If no, then of course using a %HP based ability should be sparringly chosen, just as dropping defense or turning away from a mob for a specific task should be thought twice to avoid beeing catched helplessly. Timing your Abyssal strike here beeing the key to avoid healer disruption. The ability beeing a group support, it's probably not advised to use it while tanking mainly physical damage anyway, but to protect your group on magic heavy fights and/or while tanking magic based hard hitters.

     

    And no, they didn't repeatidly say Some tanks won't be as good as other overall. They said they are better on some fields and lower on others, don't nitpick to make an argumentation out of chosen parts of sentences.


    This post was edited by MauvaisOeil at November 24, 2019 3:58 AM PST
    • 2476 posts
    November 25, 2019 9:45 AM PST

    Darch said:

    Add: Furthermore, my point is that if there aren't encounters that one shot players, there will be absolutely no need to advance (get better gear or more levels), or even have a tank role if you can just buff up and equip any class to tank.

    Add#2:  Also, don't take the term one-shot "literal" - its a term used to identify a player taking damage too fast to recover from.  i.e. 20 NPCs hitting a player at the same time would "one-shot" them... even though in actuality it is more like 20 hits landing nearly simultaneously.

    That's just not true. You always want to advance and get better gear, being "one-shot" has little to do with that.

    If you have lower gear and you aren't being "one-shot" you are still draining the group/healers resources faster than normal meaning the group won't be able to hang as long as if the tank were better geared. Thus you will likely still fail difficult content but not by some gimmicky "one-shotting" but by a quicker draining of resouces leading to a lack of group endurance. 

    • 1657 posts
    November 25, 2019 11:50 AM PST

    Iksar said:

    Darch said:

    Add: Furthermore, my point is that if there aren't encounters that one shot players, there will be absolutely no need to advance (get better gear or more levels), or even have a tank role if you can just buff up and equip any class to tank.

    Add#2:  Also, don't take the term one-shot "literal" - its a term used to identify a player taking damage too fast to recover from.  i.e. 20 NPCs hitting a player at the same time would "one-shot" them... even though in actuality it is more like 20 hits landing nearly simultaneously.

    That's just not true. You always want to advance and get better gear, being "one-shot" has little to do with that.

    If you have lower gear and you aren't being "one-shot" you are still draining the group/healers resources faster than normal meaning the group won't be able to hang as long as if the tank were better geared. Thus you will likely still fail difficult content but not by some gimmicky "one-shotting" but by a quicker draining of resouces leading to a lack of group endurance. 

    I also don't get how using one shot as a "gear more" step to reach is pertinent in considering the dire lord is weaker and will be one shot. If a boss is out of reach, dying too fast from damage will affect everyone and lead to more gearing as a counterpart. It's not putting tanks into perspective, just counter argumenting while getting away from the subject.

    • 246 posts
    November 25, 2019 7:56 PM PST

    One thing not said (I think, I just skimmed) as a pro for the Dire Lord is the fact they will scale the best of all tanks, due to their healing being total HP % based. Unless Pantheon's AC formula scales linearly, the Dire Lord will infinitely scale better with gear (and buffs).

    • 694 posts
    November 29, 2019 9:12 PM PST

    Iksar said:

    That's just not true. You always want to advance and get better gear, being "one-shot" has little to do with that.

    If you have lower gear and you aren't being "one-shot" you are still draining the group/healers resources faster than normal meaning the group won't be able to hang as long as if the tank were better geared. Thus you will likely still fail difficult content but not by some gimmicky "one-shotting" but by a quicker draining of resouces leading to a lack of group endurance. 

    Although I hear wher you are going with that line of thinking Iksar, that isnt 100% accurate - you only need to advance and get better gear when you need better gear to advance.  If you can progress without better gear, some won't "try" to get gear until they are done progressing.  One example is a Bard in EQ1 could swarm kite nearly naked until you started to get "killed too fast to recover" (1-shot).  Same for the pet classes... very little gear was needed to advance.  Another example is a person leveling in an area that only granted a small amount of exp because they didn't need to have better gear to advance due to being higher level than the content and there was no "need" for improving their gear to advance in level.  On the other side of that, late game raids aren't going to allow a group of fresh level 50s wearing level 40-45 gear (because they stayed in areas that didn't advance their gear accordingly) walk through it without people being completely annihilated (1-shot)... forcing players to get better gear elsewhere and come back again later.  This is the easiest "carrot on a stick" that gives MMOs longevity - if players don't get 1-shot at some point, the game will come to a screeching halt because players will become bored/unchallenged.

    Fragile said:

    One thing not said (I think, I just skimmed) as a pro for the Dire Lord is the fact they will scale the best of all tanks, due to their healing being total HP % based. Unless Pantheon's AC formula scales linearly, the Dire Lord will infinitely scale better with gear (and buffs).

    This is a great point Fragile.  Another thing to think about is if AC does soft cap, won't all tanks stack HP to continue to scale?  One of the Paladins abilities heals for X% of missing health too.  Also, although the devs have said that there will be no "complete heal" a clever cleric can just combine Coalescence and Reithal's Luminous Shield by switching defensive targets quickly (especially if there is another tank to match HP with).  

    • 694 posts
    November 29, 2019 9:43 PM PST

    MauvaisOeil said:

    And no, they didn't repeatidly say Some tanks won't be as good as other overall. They said they are better on some fields and lower on others, don't nitpick to make an argumentation out of chosen parts of sentences.

    Mauv, they HAVE said that some tanks won't be as good as others. (You inserted the word "overall").  Chris's literal quote is "Just like with the healers, its going to be important that each of the tanks are able to do that "role effectively", and then later says that they will have different fortes and the DL's forte will be tanking magic based encounters, while the Paladin's forte will be having an increased efficiency against undead.  I wouldn't call addressing a core game mechanic (damage mitigation) of a role "nitpicking" - Its likely going to be a fairly important factor.  I'm making the "1-shot" statement in regard to all classes, not just DL.  See my above post about why there will absolutely be encounters that kill players immediately.

    • 1657 posts
    November 30, 2019 12:47 AM PST

    Darch said:

    Mauv, they HAVE said that some tanks won't be as good as others. (You inserted the word "overall").  Chris's literal quote is "Just like with the healers, its going to be important that each of the tanks are able to do that "role effectively", and then later says that they will have different fortes and the DL's forte will be tanking magic based encounters, while the Paladin's forte will be having an increased efficiency against undead.  I wouldn't call addressing a core game mechanic (damage mitigation) of a role "nitpicking" - Its likely going to be a fairly important factor.  I'm making the "1-shot" statement in regard to all classes, not just DL.  See my above post about why there will absolutely be encounters that kill players immediately.

     

    So basically you just contradict me then add quotes that exactly means what I said :

    Chris's literal quote is "Just like with the healers, its going to be important that each of the tanks are able to do that "role effectively", and then later says that they will have different fortes and the DL's forte will be tanking magic based encounters, while the Paladin's forte will be having an increased efficiency against undead. 

     

    That's really weird.

    • 246 posts
    November 30, 2019 11:01 PM PST

    I think skill will be able to overcome slight differences. When looking at when Joppa said "effectively", one would hope that each tank can handle each encounter but there will always be the best tank PER encounter. Having more skill can justify some class shortcomings when the differences aren't a massive gap, the same can be said for dps classes as well.