Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Crafting, economics, and materials

    • 239 posts
    September 12, 2019 10:41 AM PDT
    Was just listening to the latest dev roundtable, they were discussing how crafting and quest writs could come into play with the game as a whole.
    The dev mentioned the writs being part of NPC vendors which I thought would be great to see this go much deeper.

    In EQ certain spells required certain materials most of which were very common bought at vendor and players would have endless amounts ( whatever they could afford )
    I would love to see these supplies limited as a whole. Class needs emeralds for a spell.. well if enough players are doing blacksmithing writs as they discussed the vendor might have 20 of them at 10 gold each. Maybe next week was a good week same vendor might have 50 of them at 7 gold.
    Something like this would effect pricing on most items created and a moving economy where week 1 a diamond might be worth 100 gold making the ring value at 500g. To next week that same ring maybe 700g or 300g.
    Of course this could go into any product for any skill/spell.
    I think when you have a limit number of materials that can be adjusted by the amount of crafters you have a real living economy. This would change from city to city as well, so yes in one city on one island could be different then the city across the world.
    • 2419 posts
    September 12, 2019 11:12 AM PDT

    I would disagree greatly with an NPC ever running out of an item they have in their default inventory.  The prices should only every increase, though eventually reaching a cap.  Why an NPC should never run out of such an item is to prevent players from deliberately clearing out these items and denying others from working on their tradeskills.  Full on denail through lack of inventory is not the same as only seeing an increased price due to demand.

    The supply and demand tenants of economics is what I very much support and hope that VR puts forth the effor to implement it is much as possible.  Items in high demand should command higher prices while low demand items should command much lower prices.  Items of high supply should see low prices while items of low supply should see higher prices.  Combined with truly regional markets, the enterprising player could very well find markets where an item in high supply in one area could be sold to NPCs in a region where supply is low but demand is high.

    • 1428 posts
    September 12, 2019 11:35 AM PDT

    Vandraad said:

    I would disagree greatly with an NPC ever running out of an item they have in their default inventory.  The prices should only every increase, though eventually reaching a cap.  Why an NPC should never run out of such an item is to prevent players from deliberately clearing out these items and denying others from working on their tradeskills.  Full on denail through lack of inventory is not the same as only seeing an increased price due to demand.

    The supply and demand tenants of economics is what I very much support and hope that VR puts forth the effor to implement it is much as possible.  Items in high demand should command higher prices while low demand items should command much lower prices.  Items of high supply should see low prices while items of low supply should see higher prices.  Combined with truly regional markets, the enterprising player could very well find markets where an item in high supply in one area could be sold to NPCs in a region where supply is low but demand is high.

     

    SHHHHHHHHHhhhh economy pvp mannnn.

    question is: the corey regional markets or brad continental market? 

    • 2419 posts
    September 12, 2019 11:39 AM PDT

    stellarmind said:

    SHHHHHHHHHhhhh economy pvp mannnn.

    question is: the corey regional markets or brad continental market? 

    I'd say every racial city, village, outpost or anyplace that has NPCs selling goods should be setting their own pricing and adhering to their own idea of supply and demand.  Thus that NPC out in the middle of nowhere at some tiny outpost would have a much more severe adjustments to their pricing (buy and sell) specifically because of their location while another NPC in Thronefast, perhaps sellling the exact same items, would be showing different pricing and different reactions to the buying/selling over a given period of time.

    • 239 posts
    September 12, 2019 11:49 AM PDT
    I see your point where players can ruin something like this. I was speaking of the by products of writs in a sense. Like a wood worker could make planks of lumber ad a writ while working on making bows or something. The example the dev mentioned was a blacksmith refining ore could produce a gem stone of a certain level. These items can come.from other sources as well such as drops or rewards from writs.
    But the system I'm envision would not benefit a player trying to buy up all the diamonds from 1 vendor. Firstly the next town over would have more of that item. And as I mentioned supply and demand, if he only has 5 diamonds they will be more expensive, few hours later after players complete writs supply of diamonds is higher and now that player has a hand full of diamonds tha are not worth as much as he paid for them.
    • 1428 posts
    September 12, 2019 11:56 AM PDT

    Vandraad said:

    stellarmind said:

    SHHHHHHHHHhhhh economy pvp mannnn.

    question is: the corey regional markets or brad continental market? 

    I'd say every racial city, village, outpost or anyplace that has NPCs selling goods should be setting their own pricing and adhering to their own idea of supply and demand.  Thus that NPC out in the middle of nowhere at some tiny outpost would have a much more severe adjustments to their pricing (buy and sell) specifically because of their location while another NPC in Thronefast, perhaps sellling the exact same items, would be showing different pricing and different reactions to the buying/selling over a given period of time.

    that would be more organic which i'm okay with.  i'm in favor of a regional market, but players who aren't mercantile minded will be in favour of a continental(thanks amazon).  it would be rather strange if dark myr were producing artisan ph14 drinking water and selling it the same price in syronais rest and kingsreach.  what about the transportation costs, import/export taxes?  we've solved that issue with magic!  well magic costs something right?  eh we'll see i'm with corey toot toot.

    what's teh difference between kingsreach ph14 water and syronai's rest ph14 water?  syronai's water has the blood of a goddess in it, improving skin elasitity, even reverses aging keeping you looking young and radiant like a goddess :D

    don't drink kingreach piss, drink syronai's water ^.^ approved by the fairthale distribution association XD

    • 1428 posts
    September 12, 2019 11:58 AM PDT

    p.s. insert a sound effect water droplet at 432hz

    • 1921 posts
    September 12, 2019 1:51 PM PDT

    I hate to be the rain on the parade, but there can't be any regional anything with either or both of: instant communication, and/or teleportation.  Both of which are confirmed to be in Pantheon.
    Similarly, there can't be arbitrage with either of those, for the same reasons.
    I understand peoples desires, but their current economic model or design has very serious flaws in it, and from what has been made public so far, will be yet another victim of RMT currency disparity / RL money laundering.  I wish it weren't the case, but they are repeating the same mistakes of history, so far.

    • 2138 posts
    September 12, 2019 2:34 PM PDT

    This was toyed with initially in EQ with high quality Ore.

    The merchants had it, but if they ran out anyone could to a quest to replenish the stores of high quality ore up to a fixed amount. Iirc at first the ore would not be replenished unless a player did the time-sink type run-around quest. But once done, all players in the game benefited in having access to the ore for a few days untill the merchant ran out. I think it changed to the merchant having those stores replenished after a few RL days but if a player needed it in a hurry, they could to the quest to create the ore.

    Interestingly, this mechanic inspired a a group of players to form a guild called Merchants Alliance of Norrath, where their main purpose was to travel the areas and check the main city ports and insure the merchants were filled with certain amounts of TS items that they would farm, like silks, low, med, high quality pelts, and the guild leades woud take a tally and inform the members what areas needed replenishing. Although noble in inception their plans were often frustrated with patches and server down times.

    Additonally, in later expansions that ore was included in a high level crafted armor recipe (now low level) and has become the cheapest, but best de-facto pet armor so that ore is always unavailable on merchants and is therefore, hoarded as soon as it appears- to vandraad's point- its never available.

    • 1315 posts
    September 13, 2019 6:19 AM PDT

    I could see some form of quest making the localized resources available to crafters in some way other than harvesting.  For example the Ice steel that the dwarves have could be smelted from special ore found only in their areas.  Rarely or in consistent but very low quantities there might be a rare version of the Ice Steel.

    To get the Deep Freeze Steel you could farm 100 nodes of ice steel to get effectively one node of Deep Freeze steel.  The other option would be if you make 100 nodes worth of Ice Steel writs for the dwarves they will give you one node worth of Deep Freeze Steel already smelted but not necessarily at the highest quality a specialized player smelter could reach.  Those 100 nodes worth of writs could either be global making one unit of Deep Freeze available or enough dwarven crafter specific currency received to exchange for it which themselves could be tradeable.

    I have started thinking that perhaps writs should be something that crafters need to compete for in the same way that adventurers need to compete for mobs, especially named mobs.  Maybe that really juicy contract comes up a couple times a day and some form of first to receive or first to fill credit is given in order to get special rewards that only come from getting a writ of that tier.

    • 1785 posts
    September 13, 2019 7:20 AM PDT

    It seems like this discussion has touched on a few things.

    I support the concept of material components for spells/abilities as a money sink.  What I do not support is the game not applying that sink to all players equally.  For example, if enchanters have to buy components in order to use their spells, but clerics don't, that's not cool.  That applies to non-casting classes as well.  If you're going to make the druid buy some spell components for something she can do, then you need to make the warrior buy components of some kind for something that he can do.  Otherwise what you end up with is that some classes have a built-in money sink and some don't.

    I like the concept that Ceythos discussed in the DRT of crafters being able to influence the world through writs.  I view this as similar to the goals of Vanguard's Diplomacy sphere.  However, adjusting vendor inventory via doing writs seems a little problematic.  What might make more sense instead is adjusting vendor prices.  So, the vendor always has the goods, but his price can change depending on supply/demand.  Vandraad has done a great job of illustrating this concept.  Then, what you can do is have the crafter writs tie into the supply side of that equation.  So if the crafters do writs in the local area, it helps lower prices for passing adventurers for a time.

    I don't believe that this should be the only way that crafters influence the world around them but it definitely makes sense as one of them.

    I also definitely support the concept of localized markets for goods with travel requirements.  Vjek has pointed out valid concerns, but I also think that those concerns can be mitigated to a large degree.  Describing what I think would work is probably a long post on its own so I'll leave it for now, but the truth of global (or even large regional) auction houses is that they are both prone to manipulation, and they exacerbate oversupply problems - and that serves only to limit the number of players who are able to have fulfilling interactions in the economy.  I would much rather see a game economy where many players get to sell items at fair prices, than one where all the money is being funneled to a relatively small number of people who happen to be good at economic pvp and who can conspire to keep prices high.

    Finally, I think we need to be very careful when we approach things that might impact the availability of crafting resources.  To a semi-hardcore crafter like some of us are, who is willing to devote a fair amount of time to gathering and crafting, that stuff sounds great.  The problem though is that the vast majority of crafters are nowhere near semi-hardcore about it.  They're people that might just occasionally like to fill in some downtime by making a couple of items, or maybe take a play session off from adventuring every once in a while.  Whether it's adventuring or crafting, people need to be able to feel like they're making progress on their goals even in short play sessions.  If you effectively introduce a massive time requirement in the form of doing writs, then gathering resources, just to be able to craft a couple of items, less dedicated people will bounce off the system entirely.  That's bad for the game in the long run.  I am not saying that everything needs to be immediately accessible or easy to get, but there's a balance, and we need to make sure we don't go asking for something that's going to skew that balance too far to one side or the other.

    • 3852 posts
    September 13, 2019 7:42 AM PDT

    ((I hate to be the rain on the parade, but there can't be any regional anything with either or both of: instant communication, and/or teleportation.  Both of which are confirmed to be in Pantheon.))

     

    I will rain on your rain, and I don't hate it at all. Nor do I fear it - this is not the rain of terror.

    Instant communication impacts the mercantile system a lot if it means instant mail with attachments from anywhere to anywhere else. Which I very much hope we do not see. Just the ability to send messages - not so bad.

    Instant travel is something I wish we didn't have but as you say we will have it. But if that means druid or mage teleports to specified locations not necessarily near any of the markets - again the impact may not be too bad.

    VR has indicated their thinking is regional markets not worldwide markets. While I originally was not enthusiastic about this I hope they implement it. I agree with Nephele.

    On the topic of players being unable to cast spells, do crafting, or use basic abilities because the merchant doesn't have a mandatory componant - I don't agree at all with the idea. It will be horrific to force us to maintain large inventories of everything we need to function just in case we cannot buy it. Plus, in a group-centric game it will make grouping a lot harder when combined with slow travel. Oops sorry I can't join any groups for a few days because I need to spend one night traveling to a different merchant because mine ran out of the common item needed for my basic spells. Then if that merchant has the item (no sure thing) I need to spend the next night traveling back to the dungeon.

    • 1399 posts
    September 13, 2019 10:33 AM PDT

    First I despise this "if one class has it then all classes should have it" idea. No, no, just no! I really hope not to see participation trophies or balance in all things. 

    In EQ a high end Jeweler was revered well above a high end cook as everybody knew that person had put some serious coin behind learning that craft. Cooks were dime a dozen, nobody cared about a high end cook.The same could be for classes, one class should be harder, more expensive than the next, there should be class-x is the easiest class to play and class-y should be the most expensive. This balance BS will make Pantheon just another game and all the classes just another class.

    And dorotea

     

     

     

     

    dorotea said:

    On the topic of players being unable to cast spells, do crafting, or use basic abilities because the merchant doesn't have a mandatory componant - I don't agree at all with the idea. It will be horrific to force us to maintain large inventories of everything we need to function just in case we cannot buy it. Plus, in a group-centric game it will make grouping a lot harder when combined with slow travel. Oops sorry I can't join any groups for a few days because I need to spend one night traveling to a different merchant because mine ran out of the common item needed for my basic spells. Then if that merchant has the item (no sure thing) I need to spend the next night traveling back to the dungeon.

    Is your senerio you set here really such a bad thing?  The majority of users on this site speak as there own little click. This same one group going through 50 levels together. Is it so outrageous to remove one at some time where this group meets brings in another and they actually meet and play with somebody new for a few days? To me that sounds a whole lot more social. 

    • 239 posts
    September 13, 2019 10:38 AM PDT
    Must admit I'm a little surprised. In a game where most people on here want open world concept, where players control camps, can control raids. The lore time you put it the more you get... go to a zone where if everything is camped you have to go somewhere else. Many many of nights in old EQ players didnt do anything cause cause nothing was available, that's the concept of open world.
    But trade skills and crafting better not be touched. It better be there and open and ready for the player at any time. This seems more like a money/time sink then. Just have trade skills ready for a player when they have down time with no challenges??
    In other games skills and spells that required components were not make or break skills. They were usually one that just helped if player was willing to pay a little extra cost, extra buff, corpse summon, things like that. Not being able to get a component for a certain time would not gimp your character.
    • 1785 posts
    September 13, 2019 10:55 AM PDT

    SoWplz said: Must admit I'm a little surprised. In a game where most people on here want open world concept, where players control camps, can control raids. The lore time you put it the more you get... go to a zone where if everything is camped you have to go somewhere else. Many many of nights in old EQ players didnt do anything cause cause nothing was available, that's the concept of open world. 

    I don't think this is what most people around here truly want, nor do I think it's what defines open world. :)

    • 3237 posts
    September 13, 2019 11:20 AM PDT

    Zorkon said:

    First I despise this "if one class has it then all classes should have it" idea. No, no, just no! I really hope not to see participation trophies or balance in all things. 

    In EQ a high end Jeweler was revered well above a high end cook as everybody knew that person had put some serious coin behind learning that craft. Cooks were dime a dozen, nobody cared about a high end cook.The same could be for classes, one class should be harder, more expensive than the next, there should be class-x is the easiest class to play and class-y should be the most expensive. This balance BS will make Pantheon just another game and all the classes just another class.

    While I agree that too much emphasis on balance would sap flavor from the world, I disagree that certain classes/professions should just be easy or inexpensive.  If cooks were a dime a dozen in EQ then that probably means that the components required for cooking weren't that difficult to acquire, and thus not that valuable.  I have played games where cooking was a major driving force of the economy and where food/drink was both expensive and highly sought after by the vast majority of players.  Having food can be a luxury rather than something everybody takes for granted because of how accessible it is.  I never had an issue with plate armor costing more to repair than chain/leather/cloth (in games that had armor repairs) ... or rangers needing to pay for their arrows.  Instead of looking at things through a lens of trying to balance every class/profession against each other, I think it's better to have the philosophy that all of them should have a respectable baseline difficulty/cost.  No freebies or easy paths of progression.  If someone gets to max level with any class or profession, that should be a testament to the hard work that they put in.  In other words ... the game as a whole should be revered for how challenging it is rather than the bits and pieces that are working as intended.

    • 1428 posts
    September 13, 2019 2:16 PM PDT

    SoWplz said: Must admit I'm a little surprised. In a game where most people on here want open world concept, where players control camps, can control raids. The lore time you put it the more you get... go to a zone where if everything is camped you have to go somewhere else. Many many of nights in old EQ players didnt do anything cause cause nothing was available, that's the concept of open world. But trade skills and crafting better not be touched. It better be there and open and ready for the player at any time. This seems more like a money/time sink then. Just have trade skills ready for a player when they have down time with no challenges?? In other games skills and spells that required components were not make or break skills. They were usually one that just helped if player was willing to pay a little extra cost, extra buff, corpse summon, things like that. Not being able to get a component for a certain time would not gimp your character.

     

    hol up nah there woaday let me hitcha wit the 411 on mah brain.

    to make sure we are clear:

    you are talking about a limited supply that can be refilled via writs (crafting/lifeskill quests) -i'm thinking not just emeralds, but specific and unique, 'emerald of dreams' for example, is an 'OPTIONAL PLAYER SUPPLIED GOODS'

    if i'm understand vandraad, he's referring to COMMON localized inventory, kingsreach piss water, not 'kingsreach glorious water of enhance steroids'

    ?????????

    eh nvm i'm confused i've taken 10 points of damage

    i've pass out

     

    okay after thinking for a bit:

    'jojo the gem retailer' is a npc sells common gems in kingsreach with an unlimited supply (if we go with vandraads thoughts his pricing will adjust to reflect the local supply and demand of the goods)

    he has a quest/writ to collect 100 emeralds which can only be obtain by players.  after he collects it he'll open up a limited supply of 10 emeralds of dreams unique ONLY to this npc. (reflects what you are saying?)

     

    that's fine under regional or continetal markets since emerald of dreams is exclusive to this npc and can only originate from him.  works under both systems i'm okay.  now if there is some other shmuck d'thuanti the rock channeler from under teh sea offering writs to make 'emerald of dreams' too i'm gonna not be okay.  the dark myr gem supplier could have exclusive item like, 'pearls of syronai' and still offer common gems (prices adjusted for region ala vandraad)

    bottom line:

    writs and limited UNIQUE items are regionally fixed in origin and supplied through specific npcs powered by players.

    IS THIS WHATCHU MEANNN!?


    This post was edited by NoJuiceViscosity at September 13, 2019 2:58 PM PDT
    • 1399 posts
    September 13, 2019 5:07 PM PDT

    stellarmind said:

    SoWplz said: Must admit I'm a little surprised. In a game where most people on here want open world concept, where players control camps, can control raids. The lore time you put it the more you get... go to a zone where if everything is camped you have to go somewhere else. Many many of nights in old EQ players didnt do anything cause cause nothing was available, that's the concept of open world. But trade skills and crafting better not be touched. It better be there and open and ready for the player at any time. This seems more like a money/time sink then. Just have trade skills ready for a player when they have down time with no challenges?? In other games skills and spells that required components were not make or break skills. They were usually one that just helped if player was willing to pay a little extra cost, extra buff, corpse summon, things like that. Not being able to get a component for a certain time would not gimp your character.

     

    hol up nah there woaday let me hitcha wit the 411 on mah brain.

    to make sure we are clear:

    you are talking about a limited supply that can be refilled via writs (crafting/lifeskill quests) -i'm thinking not just emeralds, but specific and unique, 'emerald of dreams' for example, is an 'OPTIONAL PLAYER SUPPLIED GOODS'

    if i'm understand vandraad, he's referring to COMMON localized inventory, kingsreach piss water, not 'kingsreach glorious water of enhance steroids'

    ?????????

    eh nvm i'm confused i've taken 10 points of damage

    i've pass out

     

    okay after thinking for a bit:

    'jojo the gem retailer' is a npc sells common gems in kingsreach with an unlimited supply (if we go with vandraads thoughts his pricing will adjust to reflect the local supply and demand of the goods)

    he has a quest/writ to collect 100 emeralds which can only be obtain by players.  after he collects it he'll open up a limited supply of 10 emeralds of dreams unique ONLY to this npc. (reflects what you are saying?)

     

    that's fine under regional or continetal markets since emerald of dreams is exclusive to this npc and can only originate from him.  works under both systems i'm okay.  now if there is some other shmuck d'thuanti the rock channeler from under teh sea offering writs to make 'emerald of dreams' too i'm gonna not be okay.  the dark myr gem supplier could have exclusive item like, 'pearls of syronai' and still offer common gems (prices adjusted for region ala vandraad)

    bottom line:

    writs and limited UNIQUE items are regionally fixed in origin and supplied through specific npcs powered by players.

    IS THIS WHATCHU MEANNN!?

    You Really need to cut back on your meds dude... or at least share some of them so I can understand what you're saying sometimes.


    This post was edited by Zorkon at September 13, 2019 5:08 PM PDT
    • 3852 posts
    September 14, 2019 8:10 AM PDT

    ((Is your senerio you set here really such a bad thing?  The majority of users on this site speak as there own little click. This same one group going through 50 levels together. Is it so outrageous to remove one at some time where this group meets brings in another and they actually meet and play with somebody new for a few days? To me that sounds a whole lot more social. ))

     

    True but that wasn't precisely my point. I wasn't focusing on the group having to find a substitute member I was focusing on the player having to spend perhaps days trekking back and forth. Not to explore, not to get to a new area, not to see an interesting dungeon. Because the town merchant ran out of a 5 copper piece item needed for spells or crafting. Perhaps because some griefer bought it up just to be mean. What was the phrase Stellarmind used ...economy pvp. The fewer ways players have to outright grief other players on a pve server the better.

     

    ((While I agree that too much emphasis on balance would sap flavor from the world, I disagree that certain classes/professions should just be easy or inexpensive.  If cooks were a dime a dozen in EQ then that probably means that the components required for cooking weren't that difficult to acquire, and thus not that valuable.  I have played games where cooking was a major driving force of the economy and where food/drink was both expensive and highly sought after by the vast majority of players.  Having food can be a luxury rather than something everybody takes for granted because of how accessible it is.  I never had an issue with plate armor costing more to repair than chain/leather/cloth (in games that had armor repairs) ... or rangers needing to pay for their arrows.  Instead of looking at things through a lens of trying to balance every class/profession against each other, I think it's better to have the philosophy that all of them should have a respectable baseline difficulty/cost.  No freebies or easy paths of progression.  If someone gets to max level with any class or profession, that should be a testament to the hard work that they put in.  In other words ... the game as a whole should be revered for how challenging it is rather than the bits and pieces that are working as intended.))

     

    I entirely agree. Balancing classes or crafts can be a game-killing curse producing either tedium or constant highly annoying tweaks. Flavour of the month or maybe of the week or the day. But no class or craft should be too much of an outlier - trivially easy or impossibly hard.

     


    This post was edited by dorotea at September 14, 2019 8:11 AM PDT
    • 1428 posts
    September 14, 2019 10:41 AM PDT

    Zorkon said:

    You Really need to cut back on your meds dude... or at least share some of them so I can understand what you're saying sometimes.

    someone once told me, 'insanity and ingenuity are the same thing.  it all boils down to timing.  in most cases, you're probably just insane XD'

    i'll attempt another translation:

    let's say alterial (potion vendor) is located in fairthale sells HP and MP Potions and has a unlimited supply.

       what i think vandraad is saying that the basic potions (default inventory) should adjust prices accordingly to how much is being bought.

       what i think sowoplz is saying that in addition to the unlimited basic potions, alterial offers crafters a quest/writ that allows her to stock up on special limited supplies.

           example: 10x alterials mana residue for every 100 uwudune's tail (a herb that players can only gather) turn in.  this should be regionally exclusive and unique to this npc, meaning i can't obtain this any other way.

     

    if the implementation of a continental market means i can sell this product to a bigger audience (amazon) instead of mom and dads corner store, that is fine.

    if the implementation of a continental market means i can manufacture this product anywhere then that is a problem.

       to draw a comparsion, it's like if i was able to make a high quality made in the usa snap on wrench in china that would last me 20 years instead of 20 minutes.  (this boils down to immersion for me)

     

    hopefully i've organized my thoughts enough to make sense.  kay back to work XD

    • 287 posts
    September 14, 2019 12:42 PM PDT

    SoWplz said: I would love to see these supplies limited as a whole. Class needs emeralds for a spell.. well if enough players are doing blacksmithing writs as they discussed the vendor might have 20 of them at 10 gold each. Maybe next week was a good week same vendor might have 50 of them at 7 gold. Something like this would effect pricing on most items created and a moving economy where week 1 a diamond might be worth 100 gold making the ring value at 500g. To next week that same ring maybe 700g or 300g. Of course this could go into any product for any skill/spell.

    I like the general idea, particularly regional ebb and flow of supply.  But if this is vendor-controlled, i.e. VR-controlled, players will figure out the times and places these items "spawn" in various vendor inventories and camp them to sell back to the players at super inflated prices.  Limiting the use of skill and abilities by limiting the availability of some critical reagent will make them the most deisrable and expensive items in the game.

    If you make them NOTRADE then you block players who can't be there the moment the items come available from playing at all. Groups will want players who have all of their skills available.  It becomes a major handicap to not have access to skills so important that they require a limited-supply reagent.

    Instead of using vendors for this the items should be generally available in the world (if this is done at all) and the skills that use them should be primarily cosmetic, not required for dungeon crawling.

    As for crafting materials and other non-gear items (maybe even for gear) scarcity drives the player market and it would be awesome if it also drove the NPC market so it's all in sync.  In the mountains near a mine, for example, the metal coming out of the mine is common and cheap. But far away it's expensive due to scarcity and the cost of transport.  Likewise, an NPC who has bought 47 Rusty Iron Swords dropped by the nearby skeleton menace taking over the graveyard should pay less and less for each one and sell them cheaply, too -- but at a profit!  But if that NPC only has 1 such sword he'd charge a bit more for resale.  Of course this last bit assumes we *have* NPC resale like we did in EQ (please please please implement that!).  Dumpster diving for profitable items with low NPC value was always entertaining and, well, profitable.

    • 1921 posts
    September 14, 2019 12:55 PM PDT

    dorotea said: ... Instant communication impacts the mercantile system a lot if it means instant mail with attachments from anywhere to anywhere else. Which I very much hope we do not see. Just the ability to send messages - not so bad.  ...
    Arbitrage isn't impossible because of what you've mentioned here.
    It's impossible because there is instant communication of any kind, anywhere, in-game or out of game, now.
    For example, if I can /tell dorotea "the price of submerged ore is 5g in the west" and you /tell me back "the price of submerged ore is 10g in the east" then arbitrage fails.
    The whole reason arbitrage has value or is possible is when you can keep your customers ignorant.  You can't, with instant communication.
    Similarly, I can do the same thing with Discord, SMS, or even email.  I can parse and display anything displayed on my screen, and store that in a web site / database / spreadsheet.  And then share it, in real time.
    This reality makes any attempt VR makes towards regionalization, ultimately, a waste of time.  Just like every other game that has tried this in the past 20 years, especially with instant / fast travel / teleportation.

    I know everyone says "well... it won't be point to point instant teleport from/to anywhere".  That's not the issue.  The issue is:  multi-boxing is approved, and druids and wizards can teleport.  
    That means every individual player even slightly serious about how they spend their play time will be able to teleport (at cost) at whatever interval is permitted by the game.  Guilds, even more so.
    Regionalization can be somewhat implemented without teleportation, instant, or fast travel.  PFO kinda/sorta did it, but not really.  Why not? 
    Because people still communicated instantly in game and out of game, so prices were known everywhere, all the time. 
    As simple as parking an alt at the marketplace interface/location/npc/interactable, in most games.

    I get the desire, it's just really easy to expose the logical flaws in light of those two confirmed mechanics.

    • 1399 posts
    September 14, 2019 2:43 PM PDT

    Akilae said:

    Of course this last bit assumes we *have* NPC resale like we did in EQ (please please please implement that!).  Dumpster diving for profitable items with low NPC value was always entertaining and, well, profitable.

    Already confirmed by the "Gods"

    Yes, NPC's will resell.


    This post was edited by Zorkon at September 14, 2019 2:44 PM PDT
    • 3852 posts
    September 14, 2019 6:21 PM PDT

    ((This reality makes any attempt VR makes towards regionalization, ultimately, a waste of time.  Just like every other game that has tried this in the past 20 years, especially with instant / fast travel / teleportation.))

    Perhaps we disagree - perhaps you are using emphasis to make a generally valid point when you say "waste of time" and "impossible". 

    I would have said that teleportation and communication reduces the distinctness of regional markets without destroying their effectiveness entirely.

     

    What we do not know at all is how many different markets there will be. My assumption is that there will be quite a few. At least one for each distinctive racial area. This necessarily implies that checking every one of them will take time. It necessarily implies that for one player to monitor them quite a few characters will be needed. It necessarily implies that at least some if not most will be hard to get to. Players being lazy .... well to put it more nicely players recognizing the value of time that they could be spending to do other things .... arbitrage on medium value items might well be effective although if I wanted a highly expensive best-in-slot item and could save hundreds of gold or platinum pieces or more (depending on the coin system and inflation) by checking the markets I most certainly would.

    If there are just two or three markets - which may or may not be *your* assumption - I come a large way to your emphasis. Why bother in the first place? Anyone serious will have a "market toon" at each of them and the travel time is likely to be short between them at their closest points. If they are continental markets, it will be as simple as go from market in a port town, take a ship, arrive at market in a port town on another continent.

    • 2138 posts
    September 15, 2019 10:08 AM PDT

    Vandraad- yes, NPc's running out can be annoying especially if you want to concentrate on a certain...

    Stellarmind- ooh PvP economy!?!?- just a moment Vandraad

    And Dorotea, yes considering all of the above and that there will be no instant travel  (I recall someone saying in another post the devs said there would be- there will not be iirc)

    Given the possible PvP economy sandbox emergent gameplay that might evolve wether by intent or accident, it will force a player to make that coveted silk road journey, perhaps in secret.

    Perhaps in secret with trusted friends, or, perhaps in secret to themselves. the so-called friends travelling with them may, once arriving in the place, themselves use up the resources to accomplish their own skilling ends that they had not considered to do before but then considered to do because of the one who gathered them to go to the other place because of her skilling need she could not accomplish in the place she gathered those friends. Would that be considered treachery? not really.

    But imagine how the game is suddenly heightened for that one that has now learned to keep that secret, finding PuGs along the way and trying to keep that skill need secret. The cathartic moment when they reach the mid levels in amberfaet chilled to the bone and the group decides to head back down and you shout oh please!, please! just up one more level, do you see that rotating geode?! there is a forge in there and a dwarf I must see! you have noted I have looted nothing, it has been so for the space I have been hauling these ores and enchantments, and these acclimation potions/dyes/armorpoultices to heat! Take them I beg you, we will need them as we enter the heat- out of this cold. I am a smith! and.... and.....legend says you never sweat at the forge in amberfaet because of the constant icy breeze that blows by it.

    And the friends you make when the group leader says "......hmm, ok I suppose we can camp here tonight, when you gonna be on next?- looks like there's some golem, rock thing with glowing eyes and a collar in the way...ahh- we'll deal with it tomorrow. C yu then" "ok bi", "ttfn", "so long", "I may be a bit late", "camping", "son has practice tomorrow but should be good, 7pm-ish ok?",

    thankyuothankyouthankyou!