Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Death as a concept

    • 125 posts
    September 14, 2019 8:39 AM PDT

    I loved reading all these ideas for death and learning some history of how it’s been handled in other games. So thanks for starting this thread @janus and everyone whose contributed mechanics and concepts: it’s been great lurking.

    One thing we mostly agree on is that death must be punishable to increase the feeling of reward from risk.

    I’m set with the traditional eq death(items left on corpse, set % exp loss, respawn at soulbinder) for many reasons, but the main reason is dev man hours. For example, including item durability requires an immense amount of programming because the system must also be included in every calculation of melee combat. Why? Because if you lose weapon durability on death shouldn’t you also lose it clashing metal to metal? Look at the devs, these are the kinda dudes that will factor in weapon material- if there was a durability mechanic they would account for wood and leather being less mailable then metal. I don’t want to imagine how in depth it would be with all-stars driving the truck.

    Certain items being bound to the character through death sounds like an economy ending duplication exploit waiting to happen.

    I personally hope the devs use brad(or whoever it was) original death code as their foundation for whatever system they’re going to implement because:

    1. It’s bulletproof.

    2. I would rather the devs spend time refining the implementation of new mechanics like climate and perception.


    This post was edited by Grime at September 14, 2019 8:43 AM PDT
    • 3237 posts
    September 14, 2019 9:18 AM PDT

    Grime said:

    I personally hope the devs use brad(or whoever it was) original death code as their foundation for whatever system they’re going to implement because:

    1. It’s bulletproof.

    2. I would rather the devs spend time refining the implementation of new mechanics like climate and perception.

    One thing to consider is that the EQ death penalty isn't exactly bulletproof in this context.  Seeing that Pantheon will have new features/systems/mechanics that were not present in EQ, they would have to be implemented in such a way that compensates for the pre-existing death penalty.  So while the developers are spending time trying to balance abilities such as rogue rope, warrior battering ram, summoner rafts/bridges, ranger wings, druid storm control, etc, extra care and consideration needs to go into how those things are designed and whether or not they would align with a penalty that is migrating from a game where they did not exist.  Instead of having a free/open design philosophy, they would be tasked with trying to make them "fit" inside a pre-determined box.  I have spent plenty of time thinking about this and the potential for those kind of abilities ultimately ends up being hampered.  Instead of those abilities offering a chance to explore/adventure into exotic areas, they would instead be viewed as gating mechanisms.

    Another thing to consider is the concept of "situational gear"  --  this is a major differentiator for Pantheon.  We have already seen how artifacts can be used to help players overcome obstacles in the world.  If a player uses a grappling hook to get into an area that is otherwise inaccessible without it, similar to how it worked in Metroid/Zelda (games that were referenced as a source of inspiration)  --  what happens when a character dies in that area?  If the grappling hook was the item that allowed them to get into an otherwise inaccessible area, and ends up dropping on a corpse in that area, how are they supposed to return to it?  Beyond artifact items, what about the potential impact of other types of situational gear such as weapons/armor that help players overcome specific encounters or environments?  What if there is a weapon that allows players to bypass a percentage of really high armor, or a piece of jewelry that allows players to avoid a certain kind of debuff?  What if encounters are challenging enough to where players can barely beat them while having these specific pieces of gear?  If players beat the encounter and then continue adventuring ... and die at some point beyond them ... and those same encounters respawn ... then what?  The items that helped those players barely beat those encounters are now stuck in an area beyond them.

    In other words ... the way I look at things ... trying to force that original death penalty serves as more of a limiter in how these new features/systems/mechanics can be implemented.  The overall scope of how these things can be designed would be stunted because it's inevitable that they would run into a situation where they are trying to force a new square peg into an old round hole.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at September 14, 2019 9:19 AM PDT
    • 125 posts
    September 14, 2019 9:50 AM PDT

    oneADseven said:

    Another thing to consider is the concept of "situational gear"  --  this is a major differentiator for Pantheon.  We have already seen how artifacts can be used to help players overcome obstacles in the world.  If a player uses a grappling hook to get into an area that is otherwise inaccessible without it, similar to how it worked in Metroid/Zelda (games that were referenced as a source of inspiration)  --  what happens when a character dies in that area?  If the grappling hook was the item that allowed them to get into an otherwise inaccessible area, and ends up dropping on a corpse in that area, how are they supposed to return to it?  Beyond artifact items, what about the potential impact of other types of situational gear such as weapons/armor that help players overcome specific encounters or environments?  What if there is a weapon that allows players to bypass a percentage of really high armor, or a piece of jewelry that allows players to avoid a certain kind of debuff?  What if encounters are challenging enough to where players can barely beat them while having these specific pieces of gear?  If players beat the encounter and then continue adventuring ... and die at some point beyond them ... and those same encounters respawn ... then what?  The items that helped those players barely beat those encounters are now stuck in an area beyond them.

    Sure hope there’s time to explore less treacherous places and maybe make friends with a necromanger or two before we face such dire adversary!

    If necros dont make it to launch I can see a temporary NPCs corpse summoner necro: Requires some of your soul to locate and summon your body(additional exp hit since you gave up on your corpse run). Only one necro NPC on a continent and they’re exiled so some remote location(exiled hermit trope) that is a long run(but not perilous) from any city you can soul-bind at. Yes I’m suggesting cross-zone corpse summoning but just for the NPC’s if necro‘s don’t make launch.

    Then when necrodangler goes live there can be a world event where those NPC necro spots become sorta like SFG was for druids/rangers. Higher level spell hub with some class specific quests or perception development.

    Kinda cool stuff, I’m prolly gonna lurk the necro board I’m sure this has already been said.

     

    • 1921 posts
    September 14, 2019 12:38 PM PDT

    oneADseven said: One thing to consider is that the EQ death penalty isn't exactly bulletproof in this context. ...
    Yep.  Even before the 96% rez in EQ1, the EQ1 death penalty was.. something you could almost ignore at max level.  I mean, you could die and get rez'd 10 times, and nothing changed for you.  Yes, you'd have to gain that XP back eventually, but it definitely allowed zerging and/or repeated attempts on content with far fewer consequences.  If nothing else, it allowed players to ignore their first 5-9 deaths when attempting content.
    Adding a persistent debuff for every death/debt means every death must be respected.  It means you get maybe 2 attempts at content before you have to go XP again to recover your full potential.
    To me, that increases challenge and raises the 'attention bar', and drives everyone (even exclusively raiders/multi-group-content-consumers) back into the 'normal' content, even after one death, depending on what content is being attempted.
    It certainly would drive the emergent behavior of a more cautious attitude toward the environment at max level, but isn't that a good design goal?

    • 73 posts
    September 15, 2019 8:23 AM PDT

    1AD7 that argument was already presented a page back and already received your answer
    Why do you insist with him if you already know that it is false?

    the skills and spells remain with you after dying no matter what skill new designs

    the case of the hook and other similar ones that can be designed do not differ at all with the tools that you need a rogue to open doors that were in EQ

    Vjek the issue of debuff in the raid if I think it would limit the design of these would have to be relatively easy
    for example in the wow the top guilds need between 1 and 10 trys the normal guilds between 50 and 100 trys and the most casual guilds between 100 and 250

    imagine that with a debuff now let's go to the pantheon in which we have an open world

    one of the things that had to be dealt with in the raids when faced with several guilds to the same boss were the trains


    I think we focus too much on the fact that death has to hurt I am playing wow clasic these days I think the most important thing is not to put a great penalty to death but to make sure that there is no advantage in any situation

    I believe that CRs are totally necessary but they do not need to be naked if another need is placed so that returning to the body is necessary (recovering 5% experience in many situations is not) would be sufficient

    • 752 posts
    September 18, 2019 9:36 AM PDT

     

    One of the main issues with trying to sort all this out is that underlying issue of not just making the death meaningful, but making sure that no advantage is gained.

    I do agree that if someone has worked hard enough or prepared well enough that the death sting should be mitigated. I do like the idea of soulbound items and soulbound acclimation. So i think this would be where character creation comes in and choosing the race/class with an innate acclimation that best fits to help with CR's in specific climates is key. Or allowing very specific epic quested items/gear to be soulbound. Maybe these epic items can change your innate acclimation permanently?

    I do like the idea of a limited graveyard system, but maybe there is a better system? What about waypoints in zones that have known CR issues instead of graveyards? That way you still have to run from bind point to zone and then you bypass specific challenges such as acclimation or climbing issues? I am specifically thinking of Amberfaet and the adjacent raiding zone that you need acclimation to enter. How would CR's be accomplished in this setting? Would a raid zone have different rules for regaining corpses than normal zones? Would the corpse be moved from the raid zone to the adjacent zone after a set time?

    These are the kinds of questions that come to my mind when i think about death and penalties. And i know weapon damage was added in some games so that each subsequent attempt was less effective than the one before.... i would like to avoid this system, but i see why it was implemented for end game.

     

     

     

     


    This post was edited by kreed99 at September 18, 2019 9:42 AM PDT
    • 1247 posts
    September 23, 2019 7:06 PM PDT

    Harsh death penalty FTW! 

    More hell levels plz!

    • 77 posts
    September 24, 2019 11:53 PM PDT

    Not all characters classes are susceptible to death in the same way, so whatever penalties you have in mind should account for this.

    When a party “wipes” some classes can routinely escape unharmed while some classes are guaranteed to die every time, namely Tanks and then Healers.  In that order.

    • 346 posts
    September 27, 2019 7:05 AM PDT

    Grime said:

    So thanks for starting this thread @janus and everyone whose contributed mechanics and concepts: it’s been great lurking.

    Yeah, I rarely will look into certain topics and if more discussion is warranted, will start it up with my own concepts while asking for input and other's contributions. It's been enjoyable reading the comments and thankfully it's been relatively civil in nature.

     

    Olympeus said:

    When a party “wipes” some classes can routinely escape unharmed while some classes are guaranteed to die every time, namely Tanks and then Healers.  In that order.

    Typically it's Support/Control first. If they're still alive, it's not too common you have a group wipe. Especially in the sense of Everquest where a train in, let's say Karno's Castle, and if those 10 or so mobs pass through us, locking them down isn't too difficult. If I die in an instance where a fight is worthy of wiping a group, that means a dead group. Then it falls on the next in the line of death which is typically the Healer next, then the DPS and Tank.

    A Tank dies due to lack of healing and that can only occur if the Healer is out of mana or dead which as to the latter puts them ahead of Tanks in the order of death.


    This post was edited by Janus at September 27, 2019 7:09 AM PDT