Forums » Off-Topic and Casual Chatter

Visual Group/Raid Role Icons

    • 1095 posts
    July 5, 2019 2:54 PM PDT

    So I was watching an old video of mine on eq2 raids and noticed a feature I totally forgot about.

    We had raid role icons over peoples head that I think would allow organization in a raid. I think it would help in the event of STHF as you are looking for a healer or  etc and also for positioning.

    Can see it in action here. Notice the gress fireball and the other Icons above peoples heads.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6TV0hr9mbM&t=20s

    Disclaimer this is not my channel just a video my Guildleader ripped off my channel.

     

    Yall think this is too much info or immersion breaking?

     


    This post was edited by Aich at July 5, 2019 3:04 PM PDT
    • 238 posts
    July 5, 2019 4:30 PM PDT

    I think that this is a common practice in most MMOs these days for group/raid organization purpose. Every game does it a bit differently though.

    1. WoW started off with different class colors and then eventually added tank/dps/healing icons depending on class spec and this was found in the raid frames. 
    2. FFXIV has designated a specific class icon for each class that can find beside the player's name in a group. Each class has a defined role so there is no need to add a tank/healing/dps icon.
    3. I'm pretty sure that Elderscrolls online does this, but it is found under the Group/Party tab and it does something like WoW by adding tank/healer/dps roles to show who is doing what. I am also pretty sure that each class has its own unique identifying Icon, however, ESO appeal is that anyone can do anything so stating that someone is a Nightblade doesn't really indicate much because they may be healing with a restoration staff.  
    4. I'm almost 100% sure that TERA had/has this feature. Much like final fantasy, each class has its own role and once you recognized the icons it was easy to tell what role they were performing in the party.
    5. I want to say GW2 also had a feature that gave each class a unique icon. This didn't really matter though because GW2 goal was to break the trinity system. 

    I would be surprised if Pantheon didn't have some sort of class identification system based on this trend. I can only imagine the nightmare of trying to put a 24 man raid together without being able to easily know who is playing what class. Not to mention the added benefit that class identification/ iconography has of strengthening players a players relationship with their class.

    I personally don't think that this system is too immersion braking depending on where it is located.  If it is located under a raid/ party in a subtle but apparent manner then it is fine. If it is located above a players head this can be distracting and I personally would find it to be a bit immersion breaking. I think that it is a good thing to identify who is playing what, because from a healing viewpoint it is always nice to know who your tank is, where they are located, and be able to prioritize healing based on class roles when you are in an OOM situation. 

     

     

     


    This post was edited by Baldur at July 5, 2019 4:32 PM PDT
    • 1095 posts
    July 5, 2019 4:33 PM PDT

    Baldur said:

    I think that this is a common practice in most MMOs these days for group/raid organization purpose. Every game does it a bit differently though.

    • WoW started off with different class colors and then eventually added tank/dps/healing icons depending on class spec and this was found in the raid frames. 
    • FFXIV has designated a specific class icon for each class that can find beside the player's name in a group. Each class has a defined role so there is no need to add a tank/healing/dps icon.
    • I'm pretty sure that Elderscrolls online does this, but it is found under the Group/Party tab and it does something like WoW by adding tank/healer/dps roles to show who is doing what. I am also pretty sure that each class has its own unique identifying Icon, however, ESO appeal is that anyone can do anything so stating that someone is a Nightblade doesn't really indicate much because they may be healing with a restoration staff.  
    • I'm almost 100% sure that TERA had/has this feature. Much like final fantasy, each class has its own role and once you recognized the icons it was easy to tell what role they were performing in the party.
    • I want to say GW2 also had a feature that gave each class a unique icon. This didn't really matter though because GW2 goal was to break the trinity system. 

    I would be surprised if Pantheon didn't have some sort of class identification system based on this trend. I can only imagine the nightmare of trying to put a 24 man raid together without being able to easily know who is playing what class. Not to mention the added benefit that class identification/ iconography has of strengthening players a players relationship with their class.

    I personally don't think that this system is too immersion braking depending on where it is located.  If it is located under a raid/ party in a subtle but apparent manner than it is fine. If it is located above a players head this can be distracting and I personally would find it to be a bit immersion breaking. I think that it is a good thing to identify who is playing what, because from a healing viewpoint it is always nice to know who your tank is, where they are located, and be able to prioritize healing based on class roles when you are in an OOM situation. 

     

     

     

    Yeah the raid/group window is easily done. Pantheon wants to be a heads forward type of game and watching the action vs windows I think the overhead icons would be key.

    Mainly the quesion is about the overhead icons. I expect group/raid to have these icons also but only if they are set, not by default. Option to be utilized. Also ties into enchanter charmed pets can be marked.

    My video example was the top end guild doing server fist kills so we rely on precision and communication and often then not quick glance visuals are far superior reguarding reaction times.


    This post was edited by Aich at July 5, 2019 4:40 PM PDT
    • 238 posts
    July 5, 2019 6:48 PM PDT

    Aich said:

    Baldur said:

    I think that this is a common practice in most MMOs these days for group/raid organization purpose. Every game does it a bit differently though.

    • WoW started off with different class colors and then eventually added tank/dps/healing icons depending on class spec and this was found in the raid frames. 
    • FFXIV has designated a specific class icon for each class that can find beside the player's name in a group. Each class has a defined role so there is no need to add a tank/healing/dps icon.
    • I'm pretty sure that Elderscrolls online does this, but it is found under the Group/Party tab and it does something like WoW by adding tank/healer/dps roles to show who is doing what. I am also pretty sure that each class has its own unique identifying Icon, however, ESO appeal is that anyone can do anything so stating that someone is a Nightblade doesn't really indicate much because they may be healing with a restoration staff.  
    • I'm almost 100% sure that TERA had/has this feature. Much like final fantasy, each class has its own role and once you recognized the icons it was easy to tell what role they were performing in the party.
    • I want to say GW2 also had a feature that gave each class a unique icon. This didn't really matter though because GW2 goal was to break the trinity system. 

    I would be surprised if Pantheon didn't have some sort of class identification system based on this trend. I can only imagine the nightmare of trying to put a 24 man raid together without being able to easily know who is playing what class. Not to mention the added benefit that class identification/ iconography has of strengthening players a players relationship with their class.

    I personally don't think that this system is too immersion braking depending on where it is located.  If it is located under a raid/ party in a subtle but apparent manner than it is fine. If it is located above a players head this can be distracting and I personally would find it to be a bit immersion breaking. I think that it is a good thing to identify who is playing what, because from a healing viewpoint it is always nice to know who your tank is, where they are located, and be able to prioritize healing based on class roles when you are in an OOM situation. 

     

     

     

    Yeah the raid/group window is easily done. Pantheon wants to be a heads forward type of game and watching the action vs windows I think the overhead icons would be key.

    Mainly the quesion is about the overhead icons. I expect group/raid to have these icons also but only if they are set, not by default. Option to be utilized. Also ties into enchanter charmed pets can be marked.

    My video example was the top end guild doing server fist kills so we rely on precision and communication and often then not quick glance visuals are far superior reguarding reaction times.

    Sorry, I think that I miss understood. I thought you were talking about class identification markers over a players head. 

    When it comes to mobs I am all for overhead icons that indicate debuffs on the enemy.  I think that when discussing abilities such as Mez, Charm, Cull, Knockout, Root, and other CC abilities, the ability to quickly identify which mobs have been CCed is crucial and should take the least amount of time possible. 

    I think that when it comes to the topic of immersion in this situation, I feel like that if my player was a living entity it would have a way to easily communicate with its party, and that is what these Icons represent, clear communication between the players' characters about what is going on with that mob. So, in this situation, I don't find overhead icons to be immersion breaking.

     If you view https://youtu.be/yi8Cq9nQV-E?t=655 which is the latest stream with Cohh, you can see VR has already accounted for this type of communication and mobs under mez have a clear icon.  You can also see the debuffs that the current target is suffering from. Again I don't find this to be immersion breaking, but an aspect of clear communication going on between the different classes. 

    Now, when it comes to players... I am not a fan of seeing buffs, debuffs stuns... etc reflected on a health bar above the player. I don't necessarily mind seeing the health bar alone, but when it starts trying to show information I find that this just muddies up the screen. As a healer, I like to see this information reflected in the party frames alone. Most of the time I disable over player health bars all together because I don't find a need for them. 


    This post was edited by Baldur at July 5, 2019 6:49 PM PDT
    • 612 posts
    July 6, 2019 8:07 AM PDT

    I think what Aich is referring to is the raid leader being able to activate an icon to float above a players head to help the other players recognize that individual in amongst the crowd.

    In WoW they called these 'charms' and there were things like a 'star' 'square' 'skull' ect...

    The idea being that there could be more Role specific type of icon's. So you could mark your Main Tank with a 'Shield' icon, or your main Assist target with a 'Sword' icon. You could mark a person with a big 'Boot' icon to designate that person as your 'follow' target when certain situations arise (When the boss casts such-and-such ability... follow the big Boot). You can mark your AoE Healer(s) with a big '+' icon so people know who to group up near when the AoE damage comes out. You could even have the same icon with a different color. So the Main tank might have a 'Blue Shield' icon but your Offtank might have a 'Green Shield' icon.

    On the other side, there should be a different set of icons for use on enemies. That way when somebody see's the floating icons in a big raid crowd they know right away if that is a friend or foe by the icon it has.

    I would also go so far as to have a way to apply the same Icon to multiple targets. It may not be usefull all the time, but in some instances you may have multiple small adds that appear with lowish health that just need to be burned, and you can apply a specific icon such as a 'Rat' icon or whatever and then everyone knows that in this fight, you always kill Rats first if they appear.

    I'm sure the artists could also make these icons fit in with the aesthetics of the game. So it's not just a big cartoony Shield icon, but rather a textured shield that looks like one you'd see a town guard weilding. They could even make it match your Races cultural shields for your 'shield' icon. So depending on your Raid Leader's race, the Shield icon they use would look like that races cultural shield. The same of course for other various icons.

    • 1095 posts
    July 6, 2019 3:46 PM PDT

    GoofyWarriorGuy said:

    I think what Aich is referring to is the raid leader being able to activate an icon to float above a players head to help the other players recognize that individual in amongst the crowd.

    Yeap.

    • 1399 posts
    July 6, 2019 4:27 PM PDT

    I'm not a big fan of the idea. For pretty much the same reason I'm not a fan of Icons over quest givers. What's the deference?

    Yes it would make combat easier, but I thought they wanted combat to be more engaging, not less.


    This post was edited by Zorkon at July 8, 2019 8:17 AM PDT
    • 1095 posts
    July 6, 2019 4:38 PM PDT

    Zorkon said:

    I'm not a big fan of the idea. For pretty much the same reason I'm not a fan of Icons over quest givers. What's the deference?

    Yes it would make coat easier, but I thought they wanted combat to be more engaging, not less.

    Your not a raider I can tell.

    • 1399 posts
    July 6, 2019 5:35 PM PDT

    Aich said:

    Zorkon said:

    I'm not a big fan of the idea. For pretty much the same reason I'm not a fan of Icons over quest givers. What's the deference?

    Yes it would make coat easier, but I thought they wanted combat to be more engaging, not less.

    Your not a raider I can tell.

    Correct.

    Have in the past the Plains in EQ (those I enjoyed) and then to The Litch King in WoW. And that's when I decided it was just too monotonous doing the same one over and over and over for 25-30 guild members IF the drops fell good. Etc. It turned into a monotonous Job. And I already have one of those. I enjoy the journey, the end is the end... unless of course Pantheon shows me an incentive to be reborn.

    Even then, I have no interest in organizing or being organized in a group of 20+ in my relaxing time.

    • 612 posts
    July 6, 2019 10:03 PM PDT

    If they do decide to have this kind of marking system with charms or icons, they will also need to decide if players can also Mark a spot in the area (perhaps with yet another set of Icon choices that are different than for players and for enemies). Thus letting people Mark a spot in the room, perhaps to designate where the Boss should be moved and tanked, or where to run to when the Boss hits you with a sticky grenade type spell ("You ARE the Bomb!"), or where to place AoE healing ("Put the Tree there").

    • 483 posts
    July 8, 2019 6:16 AM PDT

    Really long post, if anyone gets to the end would love some agurments/opinions/criticism, this is a topic very dear to me, thanks!

     

    Really hope they stay away from that, it’s too intrusive and makes the screen too cluttered, taking all the focus away from the game world and putting it into the icon, the only thing you see from the moment those icons are above the character is the icon itself and nothing else (assuming you’re in combat and playing the game, someone from outside just watching the video will notice the details), all the art, models and environment disappear because the icons overtake everything else. Sure it’s handy to play like that in a raid environment, but it also makes the game a lot easier, in a raid fight you’re in the middle of a battle! Battles are not clear cut, they’re messy and being disoriented is part of it, if you can’t get all the info from a quick glance that okay, that’s part of the difficulty of being in a raid with 20+ players and why communication in raiding is key, as opposed to following markers on the screen or having information handed out to you on a plate.

    The same goes to the debuff icons over NPC’s heads I agree that there needs to be some way of displaying the debuffs enemies have on them, but it should be limited to your current offensive target, so the screen doesn’t get filled with flashing icons. So for example in the video Baldur mentioned ( https://youtu.be/yi8Cq9nQV-E?t=655 ) the only icons that should appear are the ones on the main target (Ulthirian Cultist) and the mezz icon on the Ulthirian Soldier should not be there unless that NPC gets targeted or moused-over (mousing over a NPC’s would mimic a quick glance without changing targets, where all the Info gets showed, current health and debuffs) This would keep the screen clutter to a minimum, but still display all the relevant information. On top of that the devs already have spells effects for CC and debuffs, you can also see in the video that the Ulthirian Soldier as a Mezz purple effect signalling that he’s mezzed, no need for icons if you’re paying close attention to the game world.

    And seeing the reaction to this thread makes me a bit worried for raiding, I always saw raiding in Pantheon mimicking the minimal information early EQ1 provided, this includes no raid frames because raid frames kill some major elements of raid healing and are detrimental to the experience Pantheon is going for.

    These are the type of raid frames I’m talking about ( https://i.imgur.com/6nU7QCp.jpg ) made and edit with WoW raid frames so everyone is on the same page.

    With these you can see the HP values of every single member of the raid, in an organized way, instead in EQ to keep the raid alive healers where distributed through the various groups and had to tend to their group’s HP. So group number one would have 1 healer, group 2 would have another healer, group 3 would have another healer and group 4 another healer, the group where the tank and OT were would have extra healer to help, and so on, resulting in a normal group within a raid having only 1 healer for 5 players and having full responsibility of their groups HP and survival.

    But raid frames as a UI element kill any sort of difficulty in raid healing, because all the healers can heal all the raid members due to the UI giving them easily accessible information, thus removing a part of the pre-fight raid setup where healers would be spread out through the groups, and trivialises raid healing into oblivion. This also neglects another aspect of reaid healing, the “spot healing” (when you physically see a player in game, that’s not in your group frames, taking aoe damage or getting attacked by an add and heal him) instead of seeing the damage happening in a raid frame and being able to easily help out another group of your raid, you need to pay attention to the game world to spot players from other groups of your raid taking damage to be able to heal them, promoting watching the game world instead of UI elements.

    Implementing raid frames will fundamentally change how the game is played, because the strategy of spreading healers through the group gets eliminated, “spot healing” gets eliminated, raid healing becomes easier because you have access to all the HP values information and even if you assign healers to groups raid healing will always be affected (in the sense of being more trivial) because you can easily ask for the help of other healers to heal your part of the raid (or you don't even need to ask for their help because they can see every HP value of the raid members). With a single UI element (raid frames) 3 gameplay aspects get completely eliminated from the game (pre-fight healing group distribution, spot healing and healer communication get diminished to the point of neglection, where they don’t even communicate or ask for help, because the UI raid frames allow you to see all the HP and decide who needs help, resulting in a trivial experience for raid healers, becoming the watch the HP bars and fill them up gameplay we’ve seen since WoW), ofc raid frames are a great tool and work perfectly, but with adding these tools and extra UI elements, the game will slowly go from an experience that relies on awareness of what's going on in the game world, heavy communication between the players and knowledge of the game to a watch the UI style of gameplay.

    With UI raid frames, Healing the raid becomes “fill the bar of whoever is not getting an incoming heal right now” trivializing raid healing , if you have access to all the health bars of the raid, you can pick up the slack when the other healers are not holding up, if you only have access to your party, raid healing becomes a whole lot more complicated, especially if your group get’s RNG and hit with all the bad ****, or take a few extra ticks from an AoE, healing the group is instantly a lot harder. Also keeping the group alive becomes the responsibility of the group healer, not of the other 4+ raid healers

    Without the raid frames, there’s only 1 healer to heal 5 players instead of 5 healers to heal 2-3 players, what do I mean by this. If there’s no raid frames, as an example 3 raid members (That are not the tank or Off-tank) get really low HP, if raid frames exist then there’s 5 healers that can heal these 3 players, but if there are no raid frames and you get really unlucky those 3 players might all be on the same group, making it 1 healer for 3 players because only the healer inside the group can see their HP, resulting in an extremely dangerous situation that needs to be dealt with, as opposed to the other situation where the 5 healers would simply heal those 3 players in no time because they have constant access to the entire raids HP

    That’s why I defend having a really minimalistic UI, (because after all there needs to be are some base UI elements to play the game) beyond those few essential UI elements that are required to play the game (current target health bar, party frames, action bars, and chat) the devs should try to keep every other combat UI element to a bare minimum

     

    TL:DR -  Having a minimalistic UI resulting in much more engaging gameplay because the games is harder, with less  “combat information that’s easily/neatly displayed and accessible”  results in harder encounters and promotes a style of gameplay that requires the player to pay attention to their surroundings and game world, instead of relying on extra UI elements, makers or icons.


    This post was edited by jpedrote at July 8, 2019 6:17 AM PDT
    • 696 posts
    July 8, 2019 7:08 AM PDT

    This is just another QOL type of mechanic that isn't necessary. I get color coding names in the raid UI for group management, but icons are definetly QOL to make raids easier. Like the OP said, it makes reactions that much faster...which means easier time in raiding. As a raider myself I would like this to be a more coordinated effort, since it is not instance raiding, and so I would rather not see giant stupid icons above people heads. I can usually tell by names who is the tank and don't really need some giant icon. So if it makes people struggle more in raiding because they don't have the icon, then it is a QOL mechanic. Do we want this or not? My answer is no...we don't need it. People will still down the bosses without it. They have done so time and time again. Even when I raided in Classic WoW, Burning Crusade, Wrath, and Cata I hardly saw icons go up..even on hardmode Ulduar raiding. If your raid knows its setup and positioning then they will know where the tanks are and other healers are regardless. They will also know who to keep track of and when the tanks start moving for w/e mechanic that happens that they need to move from.


    This post was edited by Watemper at July 8, 2019 7:10 AM PDT
    • 1584 posts
    July 8, 2019 9:09 AM PDT
    Yeah no icons, like Watemper said, don't mind the whole blue for shaman or whatever but if I see a ton of icons everywhere that basically all I'm going to see.
    • 1095 posts
    July 8, 2019 3:26 PM PDT

    Thanks for the responses. 

    Keep in mind the icons don;t have to be on for everone. I found another example of just using the tanks. In this fight we had to down then in a certain order so and to stop DPS when they came together, pretty easy to keep track of where people were thes pink stars. Side note this was like a 30min fight and server first. Notice at the end, we got a server wide announcment for the drop so another feature I'd liek to see also. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHRgmi0dBHc

     

    What if instead the raid leader could place flags to help with positioning, for learning a new strat or new guilds getting into the raid scene. Could be a cool ability also for liek raid abilities etc. Just spitballin here. What I don;t want to see is someone saying "Hey dps here, clerics here' Then people are like where is here? Think of it like the battle maps Generals used or even Game of Thrones, the planning maps they used to place where troops would be. I think it would be a reallistic and even fun raid planning tool that raid leaders could share before hand etc.


    This post was edited by Aich at July 8, 2019 5:40 PM PDT
    • 159 posts
    July 8, 2019 5:10 PM PDT

    Zorkon said:

    I'm not a big fan of the idea. For pretty much the same reason I'm not a fan of Icons over quest givers. What's the deference?

    Yes it would make combat easier, but I thought they wanted combat to be more engaging, not less.

     

    I hear you & I respect your opinion on this subject. I however do not agree with you, & personally think you're taking this whole " make combat more engaging" to the extreme. Now this is my opinion on the subject.  I'm getting old and my eye sight isn't what it use to be, so yes for that reason I'm for it. I'm also for it because I personally don't see how this hurts in any way. I agree with VR and you on the part of not holding our hands by placing an icon over a quest giver to make them stand out. Now you can disagree with me like I did with you. Please keep it respectful like I did. I just wanted my opinion to be heard too.

             ( I'm just talking randomly now and not replying to any person from this point on )

    An Icon over a player in a raid group helps the healers, it helps people to assist the tank(s), and again like I stated already it helps the people with poor eyesight that have to wear glasses or contacts. I'm sick with all this holding players hands and watering down the game to the point it isn't challenging or fun any more. I also believe it is a game and it needs to be "fun".  All I'm saying is checks and balances is needed. I'm not going to be that guy that sceams that if VR doesn't do it my way by my opinion I'm going to demand a refund and blah,blah,blah.             

    • 1019 posts
    July 8, 2019 6:33 PM PDT

    That music is horrible.  EQ2 had some good raid zones.  And many of the fights were (IMHO) good stratigic fights / good puzzels.  I loved raiding in EQ2.

     

    Oh, as for the icon's.  Don't care.  We never used them.  We were a top tier raiding guild and got along fine without them.

    • 1095 posts
    July 9, 2019 2:06 PM PDT

    Kittik said:

    That music is horrible.  EQ2 had some good raid zones.  And many of the fights were (IMHO) good stratigic fights / good puzzels.  I loved raiding in EQ2.

     

    Oh, as for the icon's.  Don't care.  We never used them.  We were a top tier raiding guild and got along fine without them.

    LOL, Mean Rick roll music :P I did that cuz we were the top on the server and did all the server first drops, so I made it annoying for those who watched my videos for strats.

    But yeah to each there own, like I said in the OP, just something I had forgot about and I know they want Pantheon to be heads up watchign fights so it kinda was a question I wanted to put out there.

  • July 19, 2019 9:55 AM PDT
    A bit late, but gonna add my opinion: the icons turn a very impressive raid battle into a silly looking emoji fest. I'd rather see battle-style banners/flags or something else visceral or doesn't distract from immersion.
    • 1428 posts
    July 19, 2019 9:56 AM PDT

    FlushingToiletScreamingShower said: A bit late, but gonna add my opinion: the icons turn a very impressive raid battle into a silly looking emoji fest. I'd rather see battle-style banners/flags or something else visceral or doesn't distract from immersion.

    XD i was thinking about lucky charms when i read this.

    • 1095 posts
    July 21, 2019 7:54 PM PDT

    FlushingToiletScreamingShower said: A bit late, but gonna add my opinion: the icons turn a very impressive raid battle into a silly looking emoji fest. I'd rather see battle-style banners/flags or something else visceral or doesn't distract from immersion.

    Far from emojii, called battle markers. and they are alredy in the game, can see them in the stream with icons over mobs heads under the name.