Shai said:If I follow your logic correctly, logging off is "Apathy or lack of action" and should not be rewarded.
My counter to that is that moderating your playtime is a "Positive action" and should be rewarded, albiet mildly.
You're conflating the actions of players and their characters. One could argue that writing up a detailed guide on a forum would be considered a "positive action" but that doesn't mean that they should get an in-game reward for doing it. One could argue that pledging significant amounts of money toward the development of the game would be considered a "positive action" but most people would vehemently agree that it should hold no bearing on their in-game progression. One could argue that taking a 5 minute stretch break per 1 hour of gaming would be considered a "positive action" but that doesn't mean that our characters should be rewarded for it. If someone wants a reward for stretching they should find solace in knowing that they are less likely to suffer from leg cramps.
Pick up the phone, get a dial tone, dont make a call. Perhaps the phone carrier can provide incentives to the user for staying on the line and not making a call.
Putting up /AFK was a courtesy, a form of communication only, like using a turn indicator on a car in a parking lot or when driving.
Leaving /AFK up for hours, thats catfishing. Ok that may be extreme, but in either case the end result is true, the person is: "not there". Like leaving the phone on, and dial tone humming.
Keno Monster said:Shai said:BamBam said: I always liked small rested xp...Good catch. The "Rested" bonus was a great innovation.
I totally disagree. There shouldn't be rewards for not playing.
- An understanding that player involvement is required for progression. All actions (or lack thereof) should have consequences. Positive actions should be rewarded. Apathy or lack of action should not be rewarded with bonuses.
Gotta agree with that. My vote would be to have no experience modifiers at all, certainly not ones that encourage waiting to build up a reward for doing litterally nothing.
((Generally, XP acquisition will be really slow as a solo player.))
Great argument in *favor* of having rest experience.
As VR has already stated it is a plus for the game to enable players to solo when they don't have the uninterrupted time to group. If the alternative is not to log-on at all. As long as solo play is not so rewarding that it competes with group play.
Moving XP acquisition from "really slow" to merely slow is not exactly an encouragement to go solo (especially since the same rest XP could also be used while grouped) but it does make logging on and playing feel like not *quite* a total waste of time in terms of character progression.
I think it would cool to see two types of Experience modifiers.
1. One is the death penalty that has been discussed to death (pun not intended).
2. The second one would be a way to turn off experience gain. I think it would be cool for players to have the option to turn off experience gains if they chose to do so. While under this effect you couldn't gain levels, but you also wouldn't lose levels. It would be impossible to gain skill ups in many combats skills such as weapon skills, meditation, spell skills (conjuration, abjuration...etc), climbing skills, AAs, and any other general skills that serve a purpose in combat, while under this effect (no risk, no reward). I think the only skills that should be immune from this no experience limitation are profession skills. However, I also think that level cap should impact the proficiency cap, so if a player chooses to turn off experience at level 20 they would only be able to level up professions to a certain cap. The only two ways that this system could be seen as a benefit is for players at max level who have maxed out their skills (though they lose the ability to continue progressing their alternate advancements), and people who are wanting to twink their characters for PvP (depending on how that system is designed).
As for zones at launch, I don't think that any should have an experience modifier tied to them. Depending on how expansions and level caps are handled I think that it would be ok to see experience modifiers eventually added as a catch-up mechanic. That being said I think that Pantheon has a unique benefit that most modern MMOs don't have, and that is the progeny system. I think that future expansions could change the world from the ground up (kind of like the Cata expansion did in WoW), and players could use the progeny system to experience a new level 1-60 adventure for future expansions. It would kind of be like how Path of Exile works when they implement new leagues. One of the benefits of this type of design is that expansions could stay relevant for longer periods of time (instead of the traditional one or two years), and new content would still be delivered with the implementation of patches. It also reduces the need for level squishing and armor item level (or stat) reductions in the future, which is something that WoW is having trouble with now, and something I would argue that new players tend to find daunting when entering a game that has been out for a couple of years.
Rested, bonuses, boosts, whatever they are named : They are meant only to make the xp run feeling like a chore, or something you would want to avoid and only focus on the fastests ways. Rested XP served this purpose : your run is time wasted if you're not in rested exp, playing five time less will only average in a 2,5 less efficiency, thus making playing more unefficient overall. That's a point of design made to encourage people not to play, no to hunt for exp at all hours, or do something else (like crafting) during their playtime. Which seems quite against all logic in a game you're meant to play and enjoy.
If you play less, then you progress less. If you play more, then you progress more, there shouldn't be any sort of shortcut, logarythmic calc or anything favoring "less playing for more efficient play" unless you simply want to play less and remain effective while doing so, or it's called hand holding for casuals. Casuals aren't a bad thing, obviously they represent 80% of players (made up numbers) but the game should not be designed around "how they currently play", but about "which goal they want to achieve". The same way, difficulty shouldn't be scaled on the average newbie but on good, reactive and efficient players because it makes a goal for less experienced players to reach and get better. You don't make people better by giving them rewards for beeing average to bad. (Special dedicace to Wow Legion /BFA ).
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1. Should some zones have any bonuses due to their challenge? Should challenge be rewarded with looted items, materials and spells / abilities only?
Answear: Zone modifiers are the worst, this force people to go to a specific zone and kill, to get group or get the best exp.
All zones should have the same, so you can hunt where ever you want, without feeling you lose something or feeling you have to go to a specific zone to get a group.
2. Should zone experience modifiers be used more as a hot zones mechanic in the future as the game expands in order to move low level populations around different lower level zones to breathe extra life into them?
Answear: Same as above answear
3. Should zone experience modifiers be tied more to world events? For example a world event to purge the undead, all zones with undead enemies have an experience modifier % during it.
Answear: World event is one thing, but then it would be something that bring everyone together, like kill of something that attack some city or special halloween events etc..
4. Will/should Pantheon have a group experience % bonus that changes for 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 players like EQ in order to encourage grouping and also to ensure that 6 players yields the most bonus?
Answear: group bonus is both good and bad, having a bonus for full group is a good thing, this will make group more likely to fill up all spots, no matter what class and let everyone have a chance to group and have fun
5. Do you think the nature of the game will be enough to ensure full groups and the xp per mod divided by 6 will be sufficient?
Answear: Having a system like GW2 is good, making your level lower when grouping with a lower level, so you can still get exp and exp with that person, making both stats and level scale down
The only XP modifier that I could support would be a way to suspend or slow down your own XP. That would enable you to kill mobs to your heart's content without worrying about outgrowing certain content or friends temporarily incapacitated by real-life concerns.
Getting "experience" points while not playing seems rather silly to me, and I don't see why the eternal "I want to play with my friends, but cannot play as much as them"-problem should be addressed by artificially accelerating those who play less.
As for zone and group modifiers, I think them unnecessary, assuming tougher mobs yield more XP.
For some reason people agreed with rested XP when I added the small caviat of "while you are online" but when everyone quoted Bambam because he diidn't use that phrase, they lost their minds about how people shouldn't be rewarded with vitality for resting and how dare they return to the safety of a town after adventuring in the wild for several days... players should stay in the wild indefinitely because humanoids never get tired! With that said, perhaps there should be a "penalty" to xp if you haven't been to a city in more than a few game days (with ways around that with ranger and druid skills).
By simply changing the wording to "penalty" for those outside of the city for too long (while online), it will make some players happy, when in reality its the same damn thing with opposite phrasing.
Darch said:There are businesses that are quite successful at making money from MMOs by powerleveling and gold farming regardless of every game's EULA... there will be farmers, it is inevitable. As ridiculous as it is, this is something that didn't exist 20 years ago that is not going away as long as humans continue to be addicted to MMOs and people justify/trade their time with their money. (This will only get worse if Crypto Currency catches on too).
To address the O.P., the only exp modifier I would like to see is some kind of "rest bonus": While within the city (and out of combat), you acrrue a small rested bonus for combat XP gained. This would promote people being social and performing tradeskills in town as well as allow people to feel that their time isn't being totally wasted (again, people "value" their time) spending hours LFG only to never get to go adventure for potentially days or even weeks depending on available play time. (Its safe to assume that there will be an AFK logout timer after X minutes of AFK.)
dorotea said:There should be a substantial bonus for playing solo. Since the game will be designed for group play with no specifically solo content it should reward the few that are able to somehow manage to kill things and do quests on their own with at least double experience. Maybe more.
So, I know you were joking, but IMO this should work like this: A group kills mob X, mob X is worth 1000exp, the 1000exp is divided equally amongst the party members.
Our favoite PC, Loaden Pleaswait, solos the same mob. He gets all 1000exp just to himself.
This is, in a way, what you are saying, but said this way sound perfectly fair.
I really like this question and I had long drawn out examples on how these experience modifiers can be a boon to players but…………….
The more I wrote the more I realized how complicated these modifiers can get and keeping things simple really can be the best answer. More time spent with friends and enjoying the game is more important to me than trying to figure out every zone exp modifier. I would rather spend my time enjoying the game as a whole without my decision to travel revolving around ZEM. (Zone exp modifiers)
Thanks
Pyde
Slydog75 said:dorotea said:There should be a substantial bonus for playing solo. Since the game will be designed for group play with no specifically solo content it should reward the few that are able to somehow manage to kill things and do quests on their own with at least double experience. Maybe more.
So, I know you were joking, but IMO this should work like this: A group kills mob X, mob X is worth 1000exp, the 1000exp is divided equally amongst the party members.
Our favoite PC, Loaden Pleaswait, solos the same mob. He gets all 1000exp just to himself.
This is, in a way, what you are saying, but said this way sound perfectly fair.
I agree but to me this is not a bonus it is just the way things normally should work.
Shai said:Also, if you tie the rested xp to locations, then you drive interesting player behavior. For example, incentivising folks seek an inn before logging out turns those places into social hubs and - I think - makes them feel more alive and organic.
You're on to something here. There was a post awhile back about Inn's and one of the most common responses was incentivizing people to spend time at an Inn/Tavern.
It's going to be fundamentally hard to change anybody's opinion, especially the strong opinions of some. However, if a decision is made where it doesn't negatively effect either side then I see no harm in such. Keep in mind, ego's and pride does not fall into the category of negatively effecting someone.
Manouk said:I disagree with the idea of rested XP. The arguments for external or RL interference making you lag behind your friends I feel are counteracted by the matchmaking idea. If all your friends are playing the same schedule or time, there wll never be a serious difference between your levels and theirs. If there is, it is one easily overcome.
I do not have the same RL schedule as my friends for RL activities, let alone fantasy ones.
Jabir said:The only XP modifier that I could support would be a way to suspend or slow down your own XP. That would enable you to kill mobs to your heart's content without worrying about outgrowing certain content or friends temporarily incapacitated by real-life concerns.
Interesting point you bring up. Once again, this wouldn't negatively impact how anybody else plays the game. The only impact is on yourself. Great idea.
Jabir said:Getting "experience" points while not playing seems rather silly to me, and I don't see why the eternal "I want to play with my friends, but cannot play as much as them"-problem should be addressed by artificially accelerating those who play less.
As for zone and group modifiers, I think them unnecessary, assuming tougher mobs yield more XP.
The best point you made is the artificially accelerating statement. However, I wouldn't tie that to playing with friends, or any other scenario. I can agree with you that I do not see value added in any mechanic that promotes artificially accelerated gameplay. I would greatly benefit from rested experience but I am having a hard time validating any reason why I would actually want it. Yes, it would help me level faster, but if I'm logging off in general then I am not concerned about leveling fast.
Arguements, such as, keeping up with friends, real life obligations or simply not putting in as much time as others are not sound. They bring in too much emotion into the topic and detract from the overall question. That's why artificially accelerated is such a great mindframe to have when discussing these types of considerations.
I'm OK with XP mods for certain zones or areas that change or special times on the year.
Rest XP I'm going to vote No on. The reason being is I've seen people just log on and play during rest XP then log off. In a group focused game, if you are encouraging people to only play 30 minutes at a time or whatever, to me that defeats the purpose.
I am OK with rewarding with bonus XP for going to out of the way or rarely used areas. To me, that defines what these games are about.
ipDRe said:Shai said:Also, if you tie the rested xp to locations, then you drive interesting player behavior. For example, incentivising folks seek an inn before logging out turns those places into social hubs and - I think - makes them feel more alive and organic.
You're on to something here. There was a post awhile back about Inn's and one of the most common responses was incentivizing people to spend time at an Inn/Tavern.
It's going to be fundamentally hard to change anybody's opinion, especially the strong opinions of some. However, if a decision is made where it doesn't negatively effect either side then I see no harm in such. Keep in mind, ego's and pride does not fall into the category of negatively effecting someone.
That has never been the case. At no point in WoW history (or any other rest xp game) were inns magically social hubs in any meaningful way, people just show up and log out or log in and go about their business.
If they add rest exp and tie it to inns then they have the expectation to litter inns around the world in every zone or every other. Then people want hearthstones added to quick recall because travel is time consuming and players (rightfully) don't want to feel pressured to spend 20+ minutes of their alotted play time running to/from an inn.
Fun fact: rest xp came about in WoW originally as an experience penalty for playing too long (not to get people focused on towns/cities) but it was almost unanimously reviled by testers. So Blizzard changed the "normal" mob xp rate to what was previously the penalty and repacked the deal as a "bonus" and people loved it.
Iksar said:ipDRe said:Shai said:Also, if you tie the rested xp to locations, then you drive interesting player behavior. For example, incentivising folks seek an inn before logging out turns those places into social hubs and - I think - makes them feel more alive and organic.
You're on to something here. There was a post awhile back about Inn's and one of the most common responses was incentivizing people to spend time at an Inn/Tavern.
It's going to be fundamentally hard to change anybody's opinion, especially the strong opinions of some. However, if a decision is made where it doesn't negatively effect either side then I see no harm in such. Keep in mind, ego's and pride does not fall into the category of negatively effecting someone.
That has never been the case. At no point in WoW history (or any other rest xp game) were inns magically social hubs in any meaningful way, people just show up and log out or log in and go about their business.
If they add rest exp and tie it to inns then they have the expectation to litter inns around the world in every zone or every other. Then people want hearthstones added to quick recall because travel is time consuming and players (rightfully) don't want to feel pressured to spend 20+ minutes of their alotted play time running to/from an inn.
Fun fact: rest xp came about in WoW originally as an experience penalty for playing too long (not to get people focused on towns/cities) but it was almost unanimously reviled by testers. So Blizzard changed the "normal" mob xp rate to what was previously the penalty and repacked the deal as a "bonus" and people loved it.
Social gatherings do exist in MMORPG's, so understanding what attacts people to those environments, or places, and downscaling it to some effect could change how Inn's/Taven's are executed in the future. It's important to learn from the past but not eliminate possibilities based on it's outcome. I was merely pointing out the Pantheon questions regarding Inn's/Taverns and understanding that they're taking another look at them, in general. I'm not sure on their expectation or vision for Inn's but I agree that having people log off within an Inn does not necessarily increase the popularity of an Inn, within a game sense. It merely becomes an 'atrificial' hub for unimpactiful gameplay. The downstream effects, such as travel time, are somewhat irrelevant in this discussion, as it's more one of its own. There is a vast scale of players out there who enjoy the game differently then others.
I do recall the days when people played too many consevutive hours and it became a society uproar.
Iksar said:That has never been the case. At no point in WoW history (or any other rest xp game) were inns magically social hubs in any meaningful way, people just show up and log out or log in and go about their business.
If they add rest exp and tie it to inns then they have the expectation to litter inns around the world in every zone or every other. Then people want hearthstones added to quick recall because travel is time consuming and players (rightfully) don't want to feel pressured to spend 20+ minutes of their alotted play time running to/from an inn.
I agree with this, I don't want to see Inns littered around the world and I don't want to be encouraged to leave adventures early to seek an inn. If anything I should be encouraged to push out and seek adventure.
I find the idea of making an inn a gather point a little odd. Most games do seem to have natural gathering areas. banks and exchanges are commonly packed with people. I am trying to imagine most inns with that many people and it would not be a pretty site.
As I stated before I am fine with rest experience as long as I can turn off or redirect my experience. This is my main way to stay the same level as friends or making content relevant until I am ready to move on. But the idea that I would than use an area like an inn as a gather point is unlikely at best. Unless I have something to do at the inn like a bank or exchange I will just logout as soon as I get there. I do not even like using an inn to sell my junk preferring a vender outside of a building.
In a game I do not have the same comforts in mind as in real life. I can sit on the cobble street just as comfortable as in an inn. I can chat with people with them near me or not. I am just not sure why an inn has anything to offer that say a bank dose not.
If I wanted people to gather in central areas, I would limit the number of towns that have a good mix of required elements like banks, exchanges, crafting, etc. placement of said points of interest as well as access to said area is also important. I am always looking for the ideal towns in a game and this becomes my hub. Normally this is a small to mid-size town that happens to have it all. Big towns are normally just too much running around.
I was thinking a neat idea for inns might be to let real people perform music live. Of course, this would be a mess to manage and would have all kinds of issues. But it would be cool and it would make me hang out in an inn.