Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Experience modifiers

    • 2419 posts
    June 21, 2019 6:59 AM PDT

    Kittik said:

    None.  Nothing at all. 

    This.  None at all, for any reason, at any time.

    • 234 posts
    June 21, 2019 7:51 AM PDT

    I believe the original concept behind XP (other than being a value to monitor vertical progression) was related to how well any one character could learn / apptitude with expanding their own skills and mind; thus a measure of advancment that can be calculated against.  

    Thus the original inspiration behind racial modifiers, as some races may be more adept at some things than others and therefore should gain experience in some things faster or slower than some average rate of change.

    That said, and for the reasons stated above, I would be ok with racial modifiers; where humans might represent the average and some percentage of difference in different schools of magic or skills would apply to other races.  Such as elves being more agile and thus gaining proficiency with skills requiring agility faster than humans and ogres not being perhaps as smart and thus having slower progression in schools of magic compared to humans.

    If those things however are off the table, then I advocate for no modifiers at all.  Especially not modifiers based on location, potions or what not.

    -Az

     


    This post was edited by azaya at June 21, 2019 7:53 AM PDT
    • 36 posts
    June 21, 2019 8:03 AM PDT

    Chanus said:

    There is certainly a philosophical divide between people who think a game should all be about what is deserved by the right kind of player and those who think mechanics to allow people to catch up don't take away anything from the former group and help preserve a gaming population. It will probably never be bridged.

    Rest XP allows people with real lives to catch back up to their friends more quickly. It is usually fairly limited, just equating to a slight boost over a short period of time. You have to actually play to use it, it doesn't just give you XP. It's entirely harlmess and promotes people sticking with the game.

     

    I agree,

    The population that will play Pantheon is spread across many different points in time. Some have summers off, some have families, some are retired, and there are other categories that players will fall into. I do think of rested experience as more of a negative then a positive because it does manipulate the way the game is played. However, I completely agree with the points you've laid out. Rested experience would actually cater to me, as I do not have all the time in the world to play the game. I would be completely ok with Pantheon if it didn't have rested experience, even though it would benefit me. This is because my drive to play, enjoy and progress through the game isn't really based on level or in game experience. Those who take advantage of rested experience, in the manner you're referring to, don't necessarily race to max level anyways. Connecting their level to the experience of game play they would encounter are kind of polar opposites.

    • 297 posts
    June 21, 2019 8:13 AM PDT

    Yeah, you literally can't race to the top and also take advantage of Rested XP in the way any Rested XP system actually works. You gain the bonus slower than you would gain XP just actually playing.

    It really is nothing more than a slight help to those with less time available, or who need to stop playing for a short period of time unexpectedly, or whatever the case may be. It doesn't affect anyone else and doesn't diminish anyone else's accomplishments. 

    • 3852 posts
    June 21, 2019 8:25 AM PDT

    While I would be happy to see no xp boosts I do agree that rest xp if not overdone is one of the more justifiable exceptions. As long as there is a cap on how much rest xp you can get - I shouldn't be able to create a character, log her on a year later and have double xp all the way to level-cap.

    • 1315 posts
    June 21, 2019 8:35 AM PDT

    I could see implementing local area exp buffs based on environmental challenges.  If you had say a volcano zone with spread out mobs and random blasts of lava landing around the zone it would be very hazardous and hard to grind in efficiently.  In order to make the area relatively the same amount of exp per hour vs a humanoid camp in an open plain you would need an exp modifier as you will never be able to achieve constant pulls.  There could be other environmental challenges that could be deliberately put in to make an area interesting and challenging but they don’t want it to be avoided due to inefficiency.

    When designing D&D encounters you are supposed to award Exp for battle field traps and challenges in addition to the raw exp for overcoming the monsters.  The exp bonus in this case would be a general multiplier on the mobs to represent the environmental challenges attached to hunting there.  Many of the environmental effects like Gloom could also have an exp bonus to encourage you to find the hardest content you can handle.

    • 1247 posts
    June 21, 2019 8:47 AM PDT

    I loved racial penalties in addition to unique traits vs environment <3

    Update: A big NO to rest exp.


    This post was edited by Syrif at June 21, 2019 12:21 PM PDT
    • 2138 posts
    June 21, 2019 8:51 AM PDT

    BamBam said: I always liked small rested xp, when logging in town or city area. Apart from this - No thx. Unless if its to make sure grping more beneficial than soloing, that would be the only other case.

     

    I disagree with the idea of rested XP. The arguments for external or RL interference making you lag behind your friends I feel are counteracted by the matchmaking idea. If all your friends are playing the same schedule or time, there wll never be a serious difference between your levels and theirs. If there is, it is one easily overcome.

    However I have run into the issue of lagging behind friends I have made, to the point of losing contact with them altogether and it was because of scheduling. Ee were on different schedules. When I met them we meshed, but for the remaining 80pct of their and my playtime, we were on at different times - I think because of timezones. So it ws good for one or two levels but then the conversations got smaller and smaller as they moved away from me and going places I couldn't. But then I met new friends on my schedule and we did great things.

    No need for rested XP. Nothing to do? make something to do, no friends on? trade skills, some are on but not a full group? you already kow what you can do solo, what might be doable with 2 or 3, ad what needs a full group. I have a quest that need a group, a mission that I need help with, or a grind for some good drops and maybe a named. I have suggestions depending on whos on and I make them. If no one comes or wants to go? fine, I am not wasting time moping around, I'll be working trades, or traveling to the next town and hoping I make it there alive.

    C ya!  you can come if you want? I can use the company. Let's see what we can see maybe others will join us.

    • 1584 posts
    June 21, 2019 8:59 AM PDT

    Yeah no hot zones or zones with modified xp simply because you are dictating to the players "go here to level" and cause a ton of people to shift from zone to zone, I want to just play the game and know that for as long I'm killing targets and within my level range while camping a target  I am leveling just as effectively as someone else on the other side of the world doing the same thing.

    • 191 posts
    June 21, 2019 9:31 AM PDT

    Chanus said:

    There is certainly a philosophical divide...

    There's definitely a demographic that primarily derives enjoyment from being better than other people.  I think that crowd feels threatened by rested xp.  I don't have much respect for those people.

    ipDRe said:

    Those who take advantage of rested experience, in the manner you're referring to, don't necessarily race to max level anyways. Connecting their level to the experience of game play they would encounter are kind of polar opposites.

    That's very insightful.  I agree that rested xp isn't going to substantively affect the outliers on that spectrum.  I see it as a mostly psychological thing that makes it a little easier for the folks in the middle to put the game down and go outside.

     

    Also, if you tie the rested xp to locations, then you drive interesting player behavior.  For example, incentivising folks seek an inn before logging out turns those places into social hubs and - I think - makes them feel more alive and organic.


    This post was edited by Shai at June 21, 2019 9:32 AM PDT
    • 2752 posts
    June 21, 2019 9:51 AM PDT

    No bonus experience mods. Including NO rest experience.

    Players shouldn't be encouraged to return to inns etc for bonus experience and they shouldn't be rewarded for not playing either. I get the "catch up" argument (though honestly, rest xp pretty much never comes close to bridging level gaps between friends) but in a game where you can mentor down to play with friends there is no need for it. 


    This post was edited by Iksar at June 21, 2019 9:54 AM PDT
    • 191 posts
    June 21, 2019 9:54 AM PDT

    Iksar said:

    Players shouldn't be encouraged to return to inns...

    Honestly curious to hear your rationale, Iksar.


    This post was edited by Shai at June 21, 2019 9:54 AM PDT
    • 74 posts
    June 21, 2019 9:57 AM PDT
    No modifiers whatsoever. Nuff said.
    • 2752 posts
    June 21, 2019 10:06 AM PDT

    Shai said:

    Honestly curious to hear your rationale, Iksar.

    It doesn't make sense to me. Adventurers are encouraged to go out into the wilderness with full provisions and you exit the game by camping but games decided it was best to encourage players to run away from whatever they were doing to make it to an inn to get bonus experience next time for arbitrary reasons. In a group focused/challenging/slow progression game I would much prefer players being encouraged to camp out at or near wherever it is they are trying to gain experience so that the next time they log in they are good to go as soon as possible. It also means they wouldn't need to compromise the world by finding reasons to add inns all over the wilderness. 

    • 74 posts
    June 21, 2019 10:14 AM PDT
    To expand on what i said.

    Pride is or should be something everyone takes in the development of their character. The more arduous the task the more pride you feel. Xp bonus’s take something away inmy opinion. It also creates another “non immersive” task for the player. As now he is thinking about what bonus’s to get from where ad how can he exploit these for the quickest gain. I would prefer and i would hope other true mmoRPG players would prefer to focus on the world. The lore and the true joy of sheer exploration in a fantastical world. After all. That’s why we play MMO’s. Well, at least how i play them!
    • 74 posts
    June 21, 2019 10:15 AM PDT
    I agree with Iksar 100%
    • 11 posts
    June 21, 2019 10:17 AM PDT

    Iksar said:

    No bonus experience mods. Including NO rest experience.

    Players shouldn't be encouraged to return to inns etc for bonus experience and they shouldn't be rewarded for not playing either. I get the "catch up" argument (though honestly, rest xp pretty much never comes close to bridging level gaps between friends) but in a game where you can mentor down to play with friends there is no need for it. 

     

    Honestly if they want to encourage mentoring then give x amount of hours of bonus experince while mentoring each week. Say every sunday you get 3 hours of increased experence gain each week. Make it for those 3 hours or so it becomes the most effeicent way of making experience and skill ups. This will be great incentivation for more "hardcore" players and just highlevel characters in general to mentor down with strangers or help out alts.

    • 184 posts
    June 21, 2019 10:19 AM PDT

    Good back and forth ideas as always. In my opinion, the best and only system of some kind actually makes complete sense to “catch up,” is a caravan system that fits the risk vs reward system. Sliding bars for exp allocation within the caravan system (ie 50% exp to me 50% exp or whatever you want) for my logged off friend and additionally you pay flat rate platinum fees proportional to the level the person is. When you break it all down semantically, it comes down to trading my RL time for you at a 1:1 ratio, in addition to costing me money. So as a community, no one is being exploited or advancing for “free” like they do with rested exp, and all arguments for bot groups PLing etc would be erroneous since the exp would be a proportional % trade off (ie if you’re level 40 and kill a mob that yields 1% exp, your friend also only gets that .5% instead of autoleveling 3 levels because the mob was 30 levels higher etc). So this will inherently require someone to really care about someone else. Care Enough to sacrifice their own free time for theirs. To me, this demographic can be massed group into a category simply called “busy,” and the only people who will care enough about essentially what others would call “wasting their time,” are these super busy casual players who have friends or spouses that care more to enjoy the game with friends than racing to max level. So inherently the system fits the demographic, and will imo not affect the competitive players. But then there wil lways be some statistical outlying guild mate or leader who wants to grind out a few levels worth of AA abilities for tomorrow nights raid etc, since Johnny the cleric has to work all the way up until raid time. So to me this doesn’t exploit anything so long as it’s a proportional 1:1 ratio. I’m hardcore till the end but this can still supports hardcore. Just needs to be applicable risk associated. In a perfect world, I would also make it to where if your logged on friend dies he suffers iether double exp penalty or that exp cant be regained as per usual via cleric rez


    This post was edited by Zuljan at June 21, 2019 10:26 AM PDT
    • 184 posts
    June 21, 2019 10:22 AM PDT
    There’s also the inconvenience of the logged off person making no money for spells, so that would be another obstacle of risk people would need to calculate. Spells get expensive. People aren’t used to a game where you can’t usualky afford your spells heh heh. So many little things like that I can’t wait for. Hard mode mmo atlast
    • 297 posts
    June 21, 2019 10:25 AM PDT

    A caravan system you have described seems rife for exploitation as an RMT leveling scheme.

    Rest XP doesn't give a single point of XP to a person who is not playing their character. It gives a small bonus to someone playing their character who hasn't for a certain period of time. It's an incentive to return and an incentive to keep going.

    • 184 posts
    June 21, 2019 10:28 AM PDT

    Chanus said:

    A caravan system you have described seems rife for exploitation as an RMT leveling scheme.

    Rest XP doesn't give a single point of XP to a person who is not playing their character. It gives a small bonus to someone playing their character who hasn't for a certain period of time. It's an incentive to return and an incentive to keep going.

     

    the difference is rested exp really is free exp semantically (assuming that player ever intends to log in again and play of course). You are giving them bonus exp AT NO COST, whereas a caravan it is costing someone's RL time and character advancement. They would level up soooo slowly in addition to the other risks. But ya rested exp is no form of risk vs reward and doesn't fit this games MO in my opinion. Should probably add in something to make the player level themselves, but this is a community based mmo. If someone is caravan leveling them, they're going to be a poor player if they don't keep playing throughout that. THe community will know that, and he will have a hard time finding groups. It should organically balance itself out, so long as the person puts in their time. I see this helping people come back and play a lot more too, as instead of "dam now my friend is 3 levels ahead" which gets streesful and leads to not wanting to grind it out, theyll be excited as hell cause they actually gained a level or something and have an exciting reason to see new spells etc.

    I know what Im saying might come off really softcore, but its all just for arguments sake and as an engineer I guess I think in numbers even when it may be a qualitative discussion, and mathematically anyway, it doesn't really affect the risk vs reward thing. I mean if you're worried about people just not playing themselves, just wait till you see how many botters there are (hopefully they won't be able to PL and sell accounts like they used to). But I do get it, it's sort of radical to think in an EQ inspired mmo, you could not play all the way through yourself and make it to max level (again there coul dbe restrictions like you can only gain so much exp via caravan before you're forced to gain some yourself to be able to claim exp or something to that effect).

     

    Although it would help the population and longevity of casual players, I highly doubt we will ever see anything like this hit the game but you never know. In the perfect world I wouldn't want it; supposed to be hardcore do it yourself mmo. But just for arguments sake and reeling in those millions of casuals WoW proved are out there sitting on the fence, maybe worth considering.


    This post was edited by Zuljan at June 21, 2019 10:39 AM PDT
    • 297 posts
    June 21, 2019 10:30 AM PDT

    Zuljan said:

    Chanus said:

    A caravan system you have described seems rife for exploitation as an RMT leveling scheme.

    Rest XP doesn't give a single point of XP to a person who is not playing their character. It gives a small bonus to someone playing their character who hasn't for a certain period of time. It's an incentive to return and an incentive to keep going.

     

    the difference is rested exp really is free exp semantically (assuming that player ever intends to log in again and play of course). You are giving them bonus exp AT NO COST, whereas a caravan it is costing someone's RL time and character advancement. They would level up soooo slowly in addition to the other risks. But ya rested exp is no form of risk vs reward and doesn't fit this games MO in my opinion

    I guess the fundamental disagreement here is I completely do not care if someone who hasn't played in three days comes back and has a small bonus to their XP gained for an hour (as a completely made up example of a system).

    I'm not the type of gamer who vigorously opposes people who have less ability or availability than I do having small advantages to encourage them to keep playing and trying.

    • 3237 posts
    June 21, 2019 10:31 AM PDT

    This question came up during the Q&A with Aradune in the February 2019 Newsletter:

    Q:  Is anything being considered in terms of XP bonuses for groups, or something to encourage people to group up for XP purposes?

    A:  "I can’t get specific here because ideas like that will be tested in Alpha and Beta.  What I can talk about, however, is our general philosophy when it comes to these sorts of issues and questions.  In the past, many games pretty much threw new players into the lion’s den.  You had to figure out you needed to group.  You had to find friends to group with.  In this day and age I don’t think this is enough.  Pantheon will take a proactive role in bringing people together by helping them find friends, rewarding them for grouping and using teamwork, and doing anything else that helps build community (e.g. not simplistic group finders).  Again, too early for details, but if you consider what I’ve said I think that gives you more than a reasonable point from which to extrapolate."

     

    Rested XP violates several game tenets.  This one, in particular, seems to have been hand-crafted with a "rested bonus" in mind:

    An understanding that player involvement is required for progression.  All actions (or lack thereof) should have consequences.  Positive actions should be rewarded.  Apathy or lack of action should not be rewarded with bonuses.

     

    I have played several games with rested XP and if there is one thing it does bridge the gap towards, even if only temporarily, it's solo-viability compared to grouping.  Generally, XP acquisition will be really slow as a solo player.  (Unless we're talking about games filled with solo-friendly quest hubs.)  With a rested bonus, it's suddenly X% faster.  Instead of solo XP being dreadfully slow, you can actually watch the progress bar move forward at a reasonable pace.  When I think back on my previous experiences in other MMO's ... the only time I would ever solo (specifically for XP) is while I had a rested bonus.  The idea of adding rested XP to Pantheon should be cringeworthy to anybody that cares about the vision.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at June 21, 2019 11:26 AM PDT
    • 2752 posts
    June 21, 2019 10:32 AM PDT

    Griffca said:

    Honestly if they want to encourage mentoring then give x amount of hours of bonus experince while mentoring each week. Say every sunday you get 3 hours of increased experence gain each week. Make it for those 3 hours or so it becomes the most effeicent way of making experience and skill ups. This will be great incentivation for more "hardcore" players and just highlevel characters in general to mentor down with strangers or help out alts.

    If they want to encourage mentoring, experience shouldn't be a part of the incentive. 

    • 191 posts
    June 21, 2019 12:25 PM PDT

    oneADseven said:

    Rested XP violates several game tenets.  This one, in particular, seems to have been hand-crafted with a "rested bonus" in mind:

    An understanding that player involvement is required for progression.  All actions (or lack thereof) should have consequences.  Positive actions should be rewarded.  Apathy or lack of action should not be rewarded with bonuses.

    If I follow your logic correctly, logging off is "Apathy or lack of action" and should not be rewarded.

    My counter to that is that moderating your playtime is a "Positive action" and should be rewarded, albiet mildly.