Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Experience modifiers

    • 245 posts
    June 19, 2019 5:40 PM PDT

    In EverQuest there were various experience modifiers.

    • Event bonuses
    • Zone modifiers
    • Group size modifiers
    • Race/Class (positve and negative %)

    What would you like to see in Pantheon?

    I think we have moved past race and class bonuses and those won't come back.

    1. Should some zones have any bonuses due to their challenge? Should challenge be rewarded with looted items, materials and spells / abilities only?
    2. Should zone experience modifiers be used more as a hot zones mechanic in the future as the game expands in order to move low level populations around different lower level zones to breathe extra life into them?
    3. Should zone experience modifiers be tied more to world events? For example a world event to purge the undead, all zones with undead enemies have an experience modifier % during it.
    4. Will/should Pantheon have a group experience % bonus that changes for 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 players like EQ in order to encourage grouping and also to ensure that 6 players yields the most bonus?
    5. Do you think the nature of the game will be enough to ensure full groups and the xp per mod divided by 6 will be sufficient?
    • 1019 posts
    June 19, 2019 5:51 PM PDT

    None.  Nothing at all. 

    • 116 posts
    June 19, 2019 6:06 PM PDT

     modifiers to get players to use underutilized zones, I don’t see any harm. But without dynamic leveling it’s usefulness is quite limited by the number of players that can effectively gain XP in that zone. 

    • 191 posts
    June 19, 2019 8:20 PM PDT

    I think I like racial modifiers, but would recommend avoiding the rest.  Especially "hot zones."  Too gamey.

    • 372 posts
    June 19, 2019 8:40 PM PDT

    I'd rather see special NPCs or quests added to empty zones. I guess I'm in favor of none.

    • 1399 posts
    June 19, 2019 10:16 PM PDT

    I think ANY experience modifier should be negative if at all (I seriously think NO modifiers). 

    I'm not a leveler, I don't care to level fast, I don't WANT to level fast, I'll be happy to stay level 10 and let all those min maxers rush there asses to 50 and get out of my way. (With any luck they will find nothing to do and log off...yea I already no, not PC to say so, get over it!) 

    I'm not entirely against making some of the more desired races, classes, zones having experience penalties to stear people away from them (like Bard.. seems every body wants a Bard, me too) . But I think that's a DEV thing they will decide what's right for their game.

    • 116 posts
    June 19, 2019 10:21 PM PDT

    @Zorkon, actually, now that you mention it, I would LOVE to be able to toggle XP off. 

    The more I think about it the more I like it. 

     

    EQ let you decide how much went to AA XP... let’s take that a ‘play your way’ step further and just let me turn it off altogether!


    This post was edited by Grayel at June 19, 2019 11:17 PM PDT
    • 124 posts
    June 20, 2019 12:37 AM PDT

    I personally don't want any modifiers. Risk and Reward should be in balance, so i can understand that xp in dangerous dungeons with a high death count is a little higher to keep a balance, but wouldn't be in favor of it.

     

    • 3852 posts
    June 20, 2019 4:07 AM PDT

    There should be a substantial bonus for playing solo. Since the game will be designed for group play with no specifically solo content it should reward the few that are able to somehow manage to kill things and do quests on their own with at least double experience. Maybe more.

     

    Just kidding, of course. While, more than most of us, I want solo play to be viable I would agree with those that want no experience point bonuses. With two possible exceptions.

    1. If a server is so low in population that they are considering shutting it down a small experience point bonus might be one way to encourage folks to start new characters there. To make up for the increased difficulty in finding groups. Bonus to be eliminated if it works and population becomes normalized.

    2. Once the game matures enough to warrent this, brief promotional events as in "welcome back" weekends for people that haven't played for a year or longer.

    • 627 posts
    June 20, 2019 4:43 AM PDT
    I always liked small rested xp, when logging in town or city area. Apart from this - No thx.

    Unless if its to make sure grping more beneficial than soloing, that would be the only other case.
    • 36 posts
    June 20, 2019 6:51 AM PDT

    I think there should be unlimited experience modifiers that I can stack.

    I don't think there should be any experience modifiers for anybody else in the entire game.

     

     

    Long story short - none


    This post was edited by ipDRe at June 20, 2019 6:52 AM PDT
    • 297 posts
    June 20, 2019 6:53 AM PDT

    Zone XP modifiers for areas that are more challenging entice players to go off the beaten path. They were removed from Everquest outside of the static dungeon/not-dungeon difference and that has resulted in literally two zones in the entirety of classic EQ being seen as a viable leveling path because they are the easiest to sit at and grind xp. Nobody groups in the Gorge or Runnyeye or countless other places that used to be considered viable.

    On the other hand, these modifiers need to be curated such that you don't end up with the opposite problem of only the two zones with the high modifier are considered viable.

    As much as the ideal of a community that explores your entire world is a lovely dream, the reality of online gaming is the vast majority of players just go to the most optimal spot and then fight over it with each other. A widely available set of zones at given progression levels incentivizes players spreading out and not fighting over a few overcrowded areas. 

    Can this be done better with XP modifiers or without? That's highly debatable I think. The idea of using XP modifiers to balance different areas due to their difficulty makes sense. Keeping this mechanic as opaque as possible might be beneficial to the idea of a community willing to spread out and explore a lot of different areas.

    Racial XP bonuses and penalties were bad game design. The idea was clearly meant to mitigate disparities in playability of the different races, but gear inflation quickly obsoleces that need and just results in certain races being the only optimal choice for certain classes. This ties into the race/class discussion but in my opinion results in extremely limited player choice as the end result is most groups rejecting non-optimal choices (the classic plight of the lonely Rogue, for example). 

    • 297 posts
    June 20, 2019 6:54 AM PDT

    BamBam said: I always liked small rested xp, when logging in town or city area. Apart from this - No thx. Unless if its to make sure grping more beneficial than soloing, that would be the only other case.

    Rest XP is a great catch-up mechanic for people whose real lives prevent them from playing constantly. I support it fully.

    • 36 posts
    June 20, 2019 7:00 AM PDT

    Chanus said:

    BamBam said: I always liked small rested xp, when logging in town or city area. Apart from this - No thx. Unless if its to make sure grping more beneficial than soloing, that would be the only other case.

    Rest XP is a great catch-up mechanic for people whose real lives prevent them from playing constantly. I support it fully.

     

    Valid point

    • 297 posts
    June 20, 2019 7:16 AM PDT

    Ezrael said:4. Will/should Pantheon have a group experience % bonus that changes for 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 players like EQ in order to encourage grouping and also to ensure that 6 players yields the most bonus?

    5. Do you think the nature of the game will be enough to ensure full groups and the xp per mod divided by 6 will be sufficient?

    To these points, EQ actually implemented this very poorly and the group XP bonus actually never really compensated for the split of XP by having more people in your group. It was nearly always better to have 5 people in your group than 6, and nearly always better for some classes to solo than even consider grouping.

    They have tweaked this recently, and I've noticed on TLPs (where you can still actually group before max level) that soloing is actually significantly worse XP than grouping except for some extremely challenging playstyles (relative to the challenge of an MMO at all, because, let's be honest... it's not challenging gameplay). They somehow finally realized that an XP bonus should not just mitigate the split from grouping but actually incentivize grouping. Make XP better in a full group than in any other case and somehow players actually say things like "let's grab some more people to make the XP better". It's weird, I know, but it works!

    I think the initial thinking was that if you have six people, you should be able to kill six times as many mobs, so the group bonus should make killing six mobs with six people the same as killing one mob with one person. That's not how it actually works, especially considering a limited number of mobs available to kill. I'd leave it to the game design team to pinpoint what the actual value should be, but grouping should be highly incentivized by rewarding you for grouping. Then you don't need to come up with abritrary mechanics that prevent play simply if you aren't grouping. You just have people who actually want to group.

    • 945 posts
    June 20, 2019 7:20 AM PDT

    Zorkon said:

    I think ANY experience modifier should be negative if at all (I seriously think NO modifiers). 

    I'm not a leveler, I don't care to level fast, I don't WANT to level fast, I'll be happy to stay level 10 and let all those min maxers rush there asses to 50 and get out of my way. (With any luck they will find nothing to do and log off...yea I already no, not PC to say so, get over it!) 

    I'm not entirely against making some of the more desired races, classes, zones having experience penalties to stear people away from them (like Bard.. seems every body wants a Bard, me too) . But I think that's a DEV thing they will decide what's right for their game.

    I can really appreciate your opinion on this and agree.  Unfortunately for people like us, there are people that will "rush their asses to 50" only to intentionally get in your way and prevent you from enjoying the game in whateve aspect of the game you find enjoyable... especially if they have nothing better to do.  There are businesses that are quite successful at making money from MMOs by powerleveling and gold farming regardless of every game's EULA... there will be farmers, it is inevitable.  As ridiculous as it is, this is something that didn't exist 20 years ago that is not going away as long as humans continue to be addicted to MMOs and people justify/trade their time with their money.  (This will only get worse if Crypto Currency catches on too).

    The devs have already included deterrents to players being certain classes by utilizing the race/class matrix as well as only allowing players to have in depth/meaningful discussions about classes other than the two most overplayed EQ classes, the Bard and Necro.  They could VERY easily release both classes... especially since there actually is no release date.

    To address the O.P., the only exp modifier I would like to see is some kind of "rest bonus": While within the city (and out of combat), you acrrue a small rested bonus for combat XP gained.  This would promote people being social and performing tradeskills in town as well as allow people to feel that their time isn't being totally wasted (again, people "value" their time) spending hours LFG only to never get to go adventure for potentially days or even weeks depending on available play time.  (Its safe to assume that there will be an AFK logout timer after X minutes of AFK.)

    • 372 posts
    June 20, 2019 8:46 AM PDT

    Oops.  Yes I agree about rest XP. I'm for that.    Also, good post Darch!

    • 191 posts
    June 20, 2019 8:54 AM PDT

    BamBam said: I always liked small rested xp...

    Good catch.  The "Rested" bonus was a great innovation.

    • 560 posts
    June 20, 2019 7:15 PM PDT

    I think this is a great question. I guess I always assumed they would include group experience bonus. But this also assumes that when in group you split the experience equally between all group members. If they did not give some sort of bonus groups would have to kill extremely fast to make it worthwhile.

    Before any other experience boost was considered I would fist want the ability to turn off all experience gain. This can be done in many ways a few that I have seen:

    1. EQ had a slider for gaining AA exp or normal experience. I liked this one the best of all the ways I have seen it. AA’s added so little progression and if you wanted you could just not spend them. The down side is you could use it until I think level 50?
    2. Vanguard just had a toggle to turn off all experience gain. I used this all the time to keep an area exciting and let me explore it fully before moving on. Simple and to the point.
    3. DDO you could just not advance to the next level. This worked but was a little gimmicky.

    If any of the options above were implemented I could see rest exp being a good thing. I also like the idea of adding something for your alts. Not sure exactly how I would do this but I could see later in the games life it might be nice to have the option to level faster when rerolling.

    I never liked the zone modifiers. It always seemed punish me for exploring and trying new zones. I loved the Grey in EQ but the experience gain if I recall right was really low. I seem to recall this getting worse as the game aged.


    This post was edited by Susurrus at June 20, 2019 7:58 PM PDT
    • 1714 posts
    June 20, 2019 7:45 PM PDT

    I think in a pefect world they'd have a framework in place where they'd easily be able to add some loot or an encounter to an area to make an under utilized(read: risk/reward imbalanced) zone more popular, but I don't mind exp bonuses, although I totally understand and appreciate why others don't. 

    edit: oh, and if there are exp bonuses don't tell anyone where they are. Make people figure it out. 


    This post was edited by Keno Monster at June 20, 2019 7:52 PM PDT
    • 1714 posts
    June 20, 2019 7:45 PM PDT

    Shai said:

    BamBam said: I always liked small rested xp...

    Good catch.  The "Rested" bonus was a great innovation.

    I totally disagree. There shouldn't be rewards for not playing

    • An understanding that player involvement is required for progression. All actions (or lack thereof) should have consequences. Positive actions should be rewarded. Apathy or lack of action should not be rewarded with bonuses.

    This post was edited by Keno Monster at June 20, 2019 7:48 PM PDT
    • 3237 posts
    June 20, 2019 7:48 PM PDT

    Keno Monster said:

    I totally disagree. There shouldn't be rewards for not playing

    Agreed.  Per the following game tenets:

    An understanding that player involvement is required for progression. All actions (or lack thereof) should have consequences. Positive actions should be rewarded. Apathy or lack of action should not be rewarded with bonuses.

    A belief that the greatest sense of accomplishment comes when it is shared - and earned.

    An agreement that player levels should be both meaningful and memorable.

    An understanding that a truly challenging game is truly rewarding.

    An expectation that with greater risk will come greater reward.

    • 500 posts
    June 21, 2019 5:35 AM PDT

    Keno Monster said:

    Shai said:

    BamBam said: I always liked small rested xp...

    Good catch.  The "Rested" bonus was a great innovation.

    I totally disagree. There shouldn't be rewards for not playing

    • An understanding that player involvement is required for progression. All actions (or lack thereof) should have consequences. Positive actions should be rewarded. Apathy or lack of action should not be rewarded with bonuses.

     

    Agreed. I never understood why you should gain xp for not actually being active in the game. If there are xp modifiers make sure they aren't obvious. Players should have to figure this out for themselves.

    • 297 posts
    June 21, 2019 6:15 AM PDT

    There is certainly a philosophical divide between people who think a game should all be about what is deserved by the right kind of player and those who think mechanics to allow people to catch up don't take away anything from the former group and help preserve a gaming population. It will probably never be bridged.

    Rest XP allows people with real lives to catch back up to their friends more quickly. It is usually fairly limited, just equating to a slight boost over a short period of time. You have to actually play to use it, it doesn't just give you XP. It's entirely harlmess and promotes people sticking with the game.

    • 216 posts
    June 21, 2019 6:17 AM PDT

    The only experience mod I'd like to see if for groups to make sure grouping is effective. I don't think we need rested exp.