Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Please don't create unnecessary bottle necks

    • 234 posts
    June 21, 2019 5:43 PM PDT

    oneADseven said:

    Here is an awesome quote from Brad that should be of interest to folks following this thread:

    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/3564/quick-switch-for-gear/view/page/9

     

    "The Event System can actually be summarized pretty easily:  Things have a status.  Things listen for event triggers.  Event triggers can be anything and you could keep adding and adding them.   It could be a simple time of day.  The thing is a mob of a pretty woman, status non-aggro.  It listens for Time of Day triggers.  The change of the clock to midnight creates a trigger that the woman becomes aware of.  The Event is that when the midnight trigger occurs, the woman transforms into a vampire.    It's really a very open system that could be taken very far (and I hope it eventually is).

    The goal is Dynamics in a sense -- the content is not always the same and it can change.  And again anything that minimizes obvious repetition and the Groundhog Effect plague is generally a good thing.

    Smart use would be to start with simple triggers and events, nothing that truly impacts the game or the players, but something that is at least noticeable when you are playing and makes exploring our world a little different and varied.

    The slightly more advanced example I've given before (although we've still only scratched the surface) is the Hill Giant/Storm Giant War.

    There is a Hill Giant camp in the world, and it is *nasty*.  Either even a raid couldn't break into the camp or perhaps we don't allow raids there.  

    But sometimes the Storm Giants come out of the heavens and attack the Hill Giants.  What triggers this?  It could be player driven, and could be obvious and simple or very complex, requiring you to have a guildmate on the other side of world who must ring an ancient bell that triggers earthquakes.  Sometimes the Hill Giants are forced into disarray because of the earthquake, their guards move inside the gates, the inhabitants are distracted and not watching as vigilantly for an attack.   The earthquake happens while you and your friends are watching, hiding from a distance.  Sure enough, a Storm Giant army dynamically spawns and heads towards the gates of the Hill Giant fortress.  You follow at a safe distance.   A huge battle breaks out, giants of both varieties are dying on all sides.   What would have been impossible normally (free movement in the Hill Giant region) is now possible.  The Hill Giant mobs could change to as they react to the invasion.  Certainly the Storm Giant mobs are interesting because they're not normally even spawned.   

    The adept and clever guild watches for events like this and opportunistically takes advantage of them.  In this example they let the two giant clans battle it out, occasionally coming out of hiding a picking off a few mobs that don't normally spawn.  Lo and behold, they also spawn with items that are only attainable during this Invasion Event.  The game's content changed, rare items were temporarily obtainable, and it made you and your friends pay attention to what was going on in the world.... if you don't have someone, for example, at least occasionally checking to see if the Storm Giants have attacked then you're going to miss it (and the players who pay better attention won't).  Or perhaps nobody paid attention, it was off-hours, and the invasion took place but there were no players around to do anything about it.

    Regions could be enterable in certain conditions but not in others.  NPCs could interact with each other with the result being meaningful to the player.  Items can be made very rare but appear more naturally... instead of the valued vambraces only dropping 1 out of 500 times, encouraging players to kill the mob over and over again (boring, repetitiv, you could have the trigger for the Storm Giant invasion be just as statistically rare, but since you're following an event and killing the mob that only spawns during the Invasion once, you not only got the desired item but obtaining it was hopefully much more entertaining."

    That really cool 1AD7, it achieves rarity in a natural way.

    Should also help to eliminate spawn camping.

    I suspect this concept will happen with epic quests in some way.

    So do the triggers randomize? Or is it a static trigger? 

    Eventaully people would learn what makes it tick, but finding out would be the fun part. 

     


    This post was edited by azaya at June 21, 2019 5:45 PM PDT
    • 264 posts
    June 21, 2019 6:00 PM PDT

    Chanus said:

    Keno Monster said:Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. This is a virtual world, and like the real world we can't always get what we want, regardless. Not everyone deserves the opportunity. Resources are finite, content is finite. There will be haves and have nots, and that's okay. 

    This is nonsense. It is a game, not the real world. Resources and content are endlessly reproduceable. You don't design a game with the idea in mind you are going to specifically lock players out of content arbitrarily. 

    Opportunity should exist for everyone. Accomplishment should be determined by their ability to overcome the challenges you have set.

    The only time this should not be the case is specific content you have intentionally made temporary (like one-off GM events or the like).

    Otherwise you are not making a good game. This whole e-peen swinging idea of people who have no lives and can devote the most time to the game meaning they are more deserving of character progression is what kills games. There is a point where a certain amount of effort should be required to accomplish things. That just makes sense. Beyond that, anyone who puts in the effort deserves the opportunity. That point is debatable and requires fine tuning, but it needs to exist such that most people who play your game can accomplish it, or you will just end up with people not playing your game.


    It is a game, after all. People would do well to remember that. Entertainment should be fun. No one cares about your e-peen.

     Very true. It is merely a game, we may as well just implement an "I WIN" button and be done with it. Opportunity existing for everyone means instancing. If you want to talk about what kills games there are a LOT of things that kill games mostly when the game implements really bad class design/bad gameplay. When Keno said you can't always get what you want he is referring to certain mobs/loot/zones being prestige. There is no prestige if anyone can do it at any time. There are a lot of MMOs out there that follow the philosophy you speak of being merely games and most of them have failed. A "good game" is most certainly subjective, "entertainment should be fun" is such a blanket statement I can only laugh it out of the room.

    • 3237 posts
    June 21, 2019 6:05 PM PDT

    azaya said:

    That really cool 1AD7, it achieves rarity in a natural way.

    Should also help to eliminate spawn camping.

    I suspect this concept will happen with epic quests in some way.

    So do the triggers randomize? Or is it a static trigger? 

    Eventaully people would learn what makes it tick, but finding out would be the fun part. 

    The possibilities are endless and I would expect to see a mixed bag approach.  Some triggers would have an element of randomness while others could be worked toward over a period of time.  There will still be bottlenecks for acquiring rare items but there appears to be a lot of thought and consideration going into making that process more entertaining, involved, and satisfying.

    • 1714 posts
    June 21, 2019 10:30 PM PDT

    Ziegfried said:

    Chanus said:

    Keno Monster said:Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. This is a virtual world, and like the real world we can't always get what we want, regardless. Not everyone deserves the opportunity. Resources are finite, content is finite. There will be haves and have nots, and that's okay. 

    This is nonsense. It is a game, not the real world. Resources and content are endlessly reproduceable. You don't design a game with the idea in mind you are going to specifically lock players out of content arbitrarily. 

    Opportunity should exist for everyone. Accomplishment should be determined by their ability to overcome the challenges you have set.

    The only time this should not be the case is specific content you have intentionally made temporary (like one-off GM events or the like).

    Otherwise you are not making a good game. This whole e-peen swinging idea of people who have no lives and can devote the most time to the game meaning they are more deserving of character progression is what kills games. There is a point where a certain amount of effort should be required to accomplish things. That just makes sense. Beyond that, anyone who puts in the effort deserves the opportunity. That point is debatable and requires fine tuning, but it needs to exist such that most people who play your game can accomplish it, or you will just end up with people not playing your game.


    It is a game, after all. People would do well to remember that. Entertainment should be fun. No one cares about your e-peen.

     Very true. It is merely a game, we may as well just implement an "I WIN" button and be done with it. Opportunity existing for everyone means instancing. If you want to talk about what kills games there are a LOT of things that kill games mostly when the game implements really bad class design/bad gameplay. When Keno said you can't always get what you want he is referring to certain mobs/loot/zones being prestige. There is no prestige if anyone can do it at any time. There are a lot of MMOs out there that follow the philosophy you speak of being merely games and most of them have failed. A "good game" is most certainly subjective, "entertainment should be fun" is such a blanket statement I can only laugh it out of the room.

    Thank you

    • 409 posts
    June 22, 2019 11:51 AM PDT

    Do we really wanna see another generic casual mmo experience. >.>


    This post was edited by Nimryl at June 22, 2019 12:22 PM PDT
    • 2138 posts
    June 25, 2019 1:57 PM PDT

    I see a distinction coming out of this discussion especially surrounding "epic's" or epic weapons. Where the Epic weapon is understood to be a class defining item as opposed to a rare drop for that class or a rare drop in general. Rare drops over bottlenecks.

     

    Naturally anyone in that class would want the epic weapon. Some argue an epic should be rare. If an epic is rare, it automatically becomes negative reinforcememt. Just thinking about the epic generates a defeatist outlook toward the class defining item and might be considered, not fun. "Here is something the game says I want and I know I can't have, so, why is the game telling me this?" its almost insulting. Some would argue not everyone should have an epic, but then what it the point of having a class defining item?.

    "doc told me I had 6 months to live, I told him I wanted a second opinion, he said I think you're ugly, too" Rodney Dangerfield

     

     I am not opposed to rare items but I do think every class should have the hope to obtain the class defining weapon or "epic". Some will get it sooner than others and that goal should be a far one, but not one unobtainable for all players in that class.

     

    However, rare drops on the other hand that are class specific, unique and drool worthy are fine and do not come with negative reinforcement, but rather come with the hope of possibility similar to the excitement of luck and from that hope, encourage re-visitation. I buy lottery tickets because there's a chance. In an MMO, I go to Avendears pass because there is a better chance that the rare sword of darkness lighting(so I dont have to carry a torch) will drop than winning the jackpot playing the lottery in RL.

    Rare drops can also create a kind  of balancing situation where, I am a filthy casual mage and I may get my epic some day but that uberguilded mage with their epic is drooling over my secondary that is a rare drop from the storm giant/ hill giant war that I stumbled onto. And likewise both the epic mage and I are looking at the other mage with their epic AND the OTHER rare secondary item that looks alot cooler while we pester them with questions as to where it dropped and when, like fishermen asking what lures were used to catch that prize winning fish.

    • 234 posts
    June 28, 2019 3:20 PM PDT

    Manouk said:

    Naturally anyone in that class would want the epic weapon. Some argue an epic should be rare. If an epic is rare, it automatically becomes negative reinforcememt. Just thinking about the epic generates a defeatist outlook toward the class defining item and might be considered, not fun. "Here is something the game says I want and I know I can't have, so, why is the game telling me this?" its almost insulting. Some would argue not everyone should have an epic, but then what it the point of having a class defining item?.

    Why would you think you can't have it?

    If your playing the game you can literally have anything if you put enough effort into obtaining it. 

     

    • 95 posts
    July 4, 2019 2:34 PM PDT

    Bottlenecks and Rarity:

    Having rare events such as the Hill Giant/Storm Giant war or the release of Kerafrym is a good thing to have in the game that not everyone experiences, but just about everyone knows about are a good thing to have. You can even have are items that do not show up anywhere else from here, but they should be prestige (marginally best in slot, graphic model, etc) but not the only viable option to be a contributing member of the group/raid/community. 

    Having a class quest such as an epic that the community and game imprints upon you that this is the natural progression of your character and proof you pass the test is another example where rarity just really doesn't belong. Instead, if you want to have some test of skill then have the rare spawn triggered by a quest turn in and lock the drop from the mob to the person that made the turn in and if your group/raid fails have a reasonable lockout to block farming (maybe a week). The test of skill will naturally become easier as content continues to get released and this is no longer current content and the raid that was once required is now a group of friendly players. 

    • 287 posts
    July 6, 2019 8:32 PM PDT
    Epics should be hard and everyone doesn't need to get one.
    • 145 posts
    July 6, 2019 8:53 PM PDT

    dont all bottles have necks

    • 3852 posts
    July 7, 2019 8:05 AM PDT

    I have been married for almost 50 years to a packaging engineer. I can say with some confidence that many bottles do not have necks unless one chooses to define as a bottle only a container that is shaped generally like a bottle *and* has a neck - which is of course highly circular logic.

    • 1019 posts
    July 8, 2019 6:46 PM PDT

    I love bottle necks.  At least for the first character.  I love having to over come an obsticle in order to continue to advance.  It's what gives the game feeling, and depth, and meaning and soul. 

    If these challenges aren't there, whats the use?  Might as well just give me the Buy Max Level Character option.