Earlier tonight I was party to a spirited debate in Discord regarding Pantheon's published race/class restrictions. It was such an interesting debate, with passionate opinions on all sides, that I thought it would be a good topic to bring here.
Essentially, the debate was about the fact that based on what we know right now, not every race can be every class - and many races don't even have some roles available to them at all. Gnomes, for example, have no tank classes. Ogres have no "dps" or "control" classes in the list currently.
Is that really something you can justify with the lore? Does it make sense that a Dark Myr, who could be a cleric, could not be a paladin? Does it make sense that gnomes can be rogues, but not warriors? Or that Archai can become wizards but not summoners?
I wanted to throw some things out and see if we could get a community discussion going about this. The info we have from the website is almost 3 years old, and the class definitions and their ability lists have been dramatically refined in that time as the game has developed. Maybe it's time to take another look at this topic and see if there's a general consenus on what "feels" right for Pantheon.
Please note: I'm not expecting the devs to change course because of this thread. But if they're at a point where maybe some of the underlying things behind that decision 3 years ago has changed, and they're re-evaluating as they wrap up project Faerthale, I think knowing our thoughts might help them as well.
So, my questions:
1) Do the current race/class restrictions shown on the web page feel too restrictive to us or just right? Based on what we know about the races, what would we want to change about that list if we could?
2) Would people be more ok with the race and class restrictions if they were only there for character creation initially, and later on, through some sort of long and involved quest, you could actually switch your class to something else? (For example, you start as an Ogre Shaman but later, after a lot of hard work and determination, gain acceptance into the wizard's school in Syronai's Rest and become a very rare Ogre Wizard)
3) If there are two races that can be the same class, should each race have different "takes" on that class at character creation? For example, should Dark Myr warriors favor spears initially, and lighter armor with more manueverability, while Human warriors favor swords and heavy plate, giving each race a sort of unique "style" of that class that the player could choose to either stay with or move away from? Or should all characters of the same class start off more or less identical, regardless of which race they select?
4) When a race (such as Gnomes) doesn't have any class options that use an entire category of items, does it make sense for members of that race to be able to learn how to craft those items in their starting city? Or, should they have to travel somewhere where those things are actually used? (Example: Should gnome blacksmiths be able to learn to create heavy armor in Skyhold if there are no gnomish heavy armor users?)
1. I am ok with it as it is. Minor changes would be ok but I want to keeprace choice meaningful. I don't want them "balanced". If one race can't be a tank class so be it. That sets them apart.
2. No not really. Maybe get to a point where you can learn a spell or ability or two, but complete class transformation? Does not seem like something I would like to see. Again takes something away from races being different and meaningful.
3. I could be on board with something along these lines. Makes race even more meaning full.
4. I think if they have contact and could possible have trade routes with others that could use the item there might be a market for it and then they would make it themselves. Even if its only being made as a trade good. But the idea that they cannot make the item that they themselves don't use is not a bad idea. Again makes them a little more unique. Makes a player have to decide if they want to play that race based on a possible handicap.
I like to see the player make choices. The more the better. Everything from character creation on should be a choice that matters. Not just cosmetic, make it matter and have consequences, good and bad.
1) The worst offender are the humans, which for SOME reason are able to be every class. If anything, their choice of classes should be limited IMO.
2) I don't think this should be questable, but maybe as part of the "reincarnation" process (what was it called again? can't find the tenets to re-check, where are they linked?)?
3) I like the idea of different approaches for different classes. Maybe each race could get a "favored weapon" for specific classes, which would give them a slight bonus? I wouldn't do this for armor types however. But racial crafted armor could give stats that complements each races stats, or improves them.
4) Absolutely! This would make crafting a lot more involved I think.
1) The choice of races must be meaningful for me . They have different physical and intellectual abilities and they have different cultures . So it makes completely sense to me that some races have more affinity with a given class than others . However there are 3 points that annoy me greatly in the existing matrix . Dwarven Enchanters and Elven Druids make no sense for me . On the other hand I miss an Elven Paladin .
2) Yes that makes sense . But the quest would have to be quite long and difficult (epic quest like) because otherwise it would mean that there are no racial restrrictions and everybody can become anything . But indeed one could imagine that an exceptionnally bright Skar who mastered necromancy could be able to learn the Summonner or Wizard magics . Now why would any evil necromancer and Master of Death want to become a banal wizard is beyond me :)
3) I always assumed that this will be the case . A dark Myr Summoner has clearly another take on his class than an Elf . The same is true for an Ogre Warrior and a Halfling Warrior .
4) I do not know if VR intended to put racial or class restrictions on crafting . Now this did exist in EQ (Gnome = Tinker , Shaman = Alchemy , Spell Research =caster , enchanter = metal enchanting so basically jewelery) . I absolutely loved this idea and my main became a Gnome whom I initially created only to be able to tinker . The more of diversity VR puts in the game the more living , believable and rich will become the world .
Race should matter - I agree with having limitations on what classes a race can be even if they are quite restrictive in some cases.
Logically this may not make sense in terms of cultural impact. Someone that really wants a career not accepted by their culture can often find a way to learn it. Even if that means exile. But with races from different worlds - maybe different universes - perhaps some races are simply very different in terms of what they can do. More importantly, perhaps, Terminus is a world that has been and still is affected by Gods. Escaping cultural imperatives is an entirely different matter than violating the will of your race's God.
I see the attraction of allowing a character to switch to a class that their race cannot begin as - perhaps though a very lengthy and arduous process. Losing all benefits of the original class perhaps - not dual class or multiclass in the old D&D sense. Although this would undercut racial distinctions. Perhaps this will be doable through the Progeny system in which case they may not want any other way to accomplish the same thing.
As to crafting - I am inclined to agree with BamBam but not strongly since I do prefer significant impacts to the choice of race. Perhaps the old concept of racial plusses and minuses makes sense. As in a tree-hugging elf having a plus to woodworking and a minus to smithing. While for a dwarf it would be quite otherwise.
I seem to be one of the rare ones that enjoy no race class restrictions. I started my MMO gaming with Muds and EQ, then WOW, LOTRO, Guild Wars, ect..... However it wasn't untill the past few years that I've started playing D&D, and there any race can play any class, just may not be as "optimised" as other race/class combos.
When you make your own world and it's history and lore, then you can easily build in a logical sounding explination as to why some race can't do some class. So saying the lore doesn't support something feels a bit of an excuse because when you make the lore you can make it say whatever you want.
Others worry about race not meaning anything if you can pick from any class; that I just don't understand. By allowing full choices, race then becomes more meaningfull because you chose that race you wanted from a larger list, rather than being shoehorned into picking from just a few.
I don't expect to change anyones minds, especially not VR's, and am looking forward to playing Pantheon when it's ready. I just wanted to present the other side, that I hadn't seen here yet.
As for your other questions; 2 - I don't think changing class midgame is a good idea, but maybe unlocking that class for a new character on your account instead. 3 - I've always liked the idea of different races doing the same classes a bit differently to better reflect their heritage and body types. 4 - That doesn't sound unreasonable. It sounds to me like you can still learn it, just not from your people, you would have to travel and interact with other race's cities to learn more, rather than it being blocked from learning italtogether like some folks interpreted it to mean.
1) Do the current race/class restrictions shown on the web page feel too restrictive to us or just right? Based on what we know about the races, what would we want to change about that list if we could?
it's pretty good minus humans... that can be any class. okay sure they are an adaptive race, but their racial and race specific abilities better be generically equal. dark myr remove monks, druids, summoner, wizard and rogues. social fish people aren't use to legs, going el solo libre, or using magic outside of life/death, arcane or water.
2) Would people be more ok with the race and class restrictions if they were only there for character creation initially, and later on, through some sort of long and involved quest, you could actually switch your class to something else? (For example, you start as an Ogre Shaman but later, after a lot of hard work and determination, gain acceptance into the wizard's school in Syronai's Rest and become a very rare Ogre Wizard)
nope keep it stupid simple. ogres are like trucks trying to do city daily driving. sure they can do it, but they are going to have lots of issues even with hard work and determination.
3) If there are two races that can be the same class, should each race have different "takes" on that class at character creation? For example, should Dark Myr warriors favor spears initially, and lighter armor with more manueverability, while Human warriors favor swords and heavy plate, giving each race a sort of unique "style" of that class that the player could choose to either stay with or move away from? Or should all characters of the same class start off more or less identical, regardless of which race they select?
race specific stuff is really cool. i loved that about classic wow priests and they gutted it. dark myr example great. they are fish people. humans better have some generic jack of all.
4) When a race (such as Gnomes) doesn't have any class options that use an entire category of items, does it make sense for members of that race to be able to learn how to craft those items in their starting city? Or, should they have to travel somewhere where those things are actually used? (Example: Should gnome blacksmiths be able to learn to create heavy armor in Skyhold if there are no gnomish heavy armor users?)
i'd keep lifeskilling stuff generic. a cook that came from an italian background can learn to master sushi one day.
stellarmind said:...
... a cook that came from an italian background can learn to master sushi one day.
True, but they would need to go to a place like Japan to learn it (at least at first, and even after the best teachers will still be from the native land). I think that's what OP is getting at.
Leachim said:stellarmind said:...
... a cook that came from an italian background can learn to master sushi one day.
True, but they would need to go to a place like Japan to learn it (at least at first, and even after the best teachers will still be from the native land). I think that's what OP is getting at.
racial physique is a separate issue from trade. we are in accord if you agree that an ogre can make a salad just as good as an elf given enough time and training, but the most agile ogre will never be as agile as the most agile elf regardless of time and training. this dictates combat optimization. nature is like this.
Rather severe race/class restrictions are one of the old school(I know that's become a bad word) D&D inspired game designs that I hope they keep. It adds a ton of flavor and makes people make an important choice. And yes, there should be more than 2 races who can play paladin, that's silly. I think they could do a better job balancing within the archetypes. Only 3 playable cleric races but 6 druid and 5 shaman? That makes little sense.
Lol NO wow/ff-like approach to this please. We don’t need more class race combos like what WoW has done. WoW trashed their own game, let‘s not carry this over here please.
Race class combos look excellent AS IS. NO changes needed! No thank you! As to VR: keep up the good work! It is terrific! And thank you for good VISION and direction. Let’s keep it that way :)
Syrif said:Lol NO wow/ff-like approach to this please. We don’t need more class race combos like what WoW has done. WoW trashed their own game, let‘s not carry this over here please.
Race class combos look excellent AS IS. NO changes needed! No thank you! As to VR: keep up the good work! It is terrific! And thank you for good VISION and direction. Let’s keep it that way :)
some tweaks are needed. i just think it's strange for a race, namely the dark myr, to be able to control earth, wind and fire. i also find it odd that they can be rogues which doesnt make sense culturally. they were created to operate as a group to kill leviathans. also monks? seriously they recently got legs. i highly doubt they'd established martial arts with LEGS. maybe the slicing fin style or the flowing fist tide style.
Seriously leave the class race restrictions as is. They have been thought out already and are good. Look at why (amongst other things) many don’t like wow anymore .. less hand-holding please. I highly doubt VR is going to change class race combos (as they shouldn’t). Next thing you know someone will say only ogres are big enough to be warriors. VR already put together their class and race combos so leave it that way. This topic is pretty much done imo.
Syrif said:Seriously leave the class race restrictions as is. Look at why (amongst other things) many don’t like wow anymore .. less hand-holding please. I highly doubt VR is going to change class race combos (as they shouldn’t). Next thing you know someone will say only ogres are big enough to be warriors etc. This topic is pretty much done imo.
so you're for class restrictions then? cuz you know i agree with you XD i think they are fine minus dark myr. i frown at humans being able to play every class, but lore wise it makes sense.
for immersion purposes i have stated my reasons. what's your justification that dark myr should be monks, druids, wizards, summoners, rogues?
My justification is VR already put together their class and race combos so leave it that way. They look very good.
I think that the class race matrix needs to be revisited at some point for finalization. I find some of the combinations or lack of combinations to be confusing. The Archi who are tied to the elements (if memory serves correctly) can't be summoners and this doesn't make a lot of sense to me from a lore perspective. I find it strange that the Dark Mir who are a water-based race don't have access to the Shaman class, but they can be druids (which might make sense if their fox was actually a sea horse, and their healing tree was actually a kelp forest effect).
I think that from a professional viewpoint class choice shouldn't affect what you can craft at end game. I do think it would be interesting if race choice had an impact on the professions that you could learn early, using the gnomes for an example, they have no need for heavy armor crafting. I think it would be interesting to see that reflected in the culture by not having trainers related to that specific profession. I don't think gnomes should be limited in the sense that they can't pick up this profession in another city though.
1. I think the race/class restrictions are fine. I dont think anything should be changed. For the following historical "mob mentality" reasons: EQ; everyone started as an elf, as players matured dwarved then gnomes were preffered, then better players chose evil races not only for RP but also for the racial hinderences. WoW; this carried over, most of the "horde" were more experienced MMO players that played evil, well and liked the nuance, Starwars; Carried over still, Mature MMO players were all darkside granted harder to play with more restrictions but if played well more powerful, while newbies and younger players all wanted to be Jedi and there were more of them.
I expect the same social dynamics to be carried overinto pantheon with nicely suprising results. New players and new comers and filthy casuals (MMO Vetran Raider players who like being nice and social) might most likely start as Humans. Whereas the core-hard core, furture guild leaders, first kill discoverers, first epic solvers will most likely be the exotic races. The dynamic will be large populations of humans doing big things- slowly, then all of a sudden shifts to the exotics as a result of a cultural clash and the game will ramp up considerably.
2. No. Deal with it
3.Yes! 2H piercing! as example have it secretly thrust upon them as part of newbie training so that their best skill just so happens to be that weapon, that way in late game when that one odd piece drops- give it to the Myr Knight with Max 2H piercing- that has also unlocked throwing.
4. No, it should be learned in another city, They can learn the basics through traded books brought by travelers or discovered tomes, but to practice they would need to go to where the smithyes are and to where the ores are. For the sake of bag space, maybe some unique areas that have craft tables in them, like the tower of Reckless magician with a special smithy set low to the ground for gnomes, or high jewelry table for ogres, or in shrines or dungeons.
**addition for the naysayers** Cultural differences. From a RP and immersion standpoint, these restrictions create a cool factor in showing cultural differences. Each is strong in their own right, and why would you want to take that away from them? like wearing blue facial covering tatoo like Michael Tyson or on that prisoner in the movie Pappillon, yet not being Maori and in so doing, being disrespectful to the Maori. Or like Sir Ben Kingsley being allowed to play Ghandi because he was found to be of Gujarati decent, and so the Indian government allowed him to play the part because they would not allow just anyone to play the part for obvious national pride and cultural reasons. Like an Ogre, not being a bard no matter how badly they want to be. They can RP it as much as they want, Jungle fever, wiggers, I hear you baby, right on, you be you. But as far as the game?
no.
Secondly from a game perspective? it makes the game harder for hard core heritage folks. MMO vetrans, will love the challenge and learn how to fight like Ogres, with just ogres. Gnomes will learn to fight like gnomes, with just gnomes. and as they meet more people? have to learn to change their style and in changing their style suddenly the game becomes fresh and new, just from meeting another in game race that has learned to do things differently.
Syrif said:My justification is VR already put together their class and race combos so leave it that way. They look very good. That’s all.
you don't find it strange for fish people to control wind earth and fire? or for fish people to be able to develop a fighting style involving LEGS when they originally only had FINS?! CMMMMMOONNNNNNNNNN......
1) Do the current race/class restrictions shown on the web page feel too restrictive to us or just right? Based on what we know about the races, what would we want to change about that list if we could?
I find some of the race class restrictions really odd. Some, as has been pointed out, make no sense at all. Sea-monkie Monks?
2) Would people be more ok with the race and class restrictions if they were only there for character creation initially, and later on, through some sort of long and involved quest, you could actually switch your class to something else? (For example, you start as an Ogre Shaman but later, after a lot of hard work and determination, gain acceptance into the wizard's school in Syronai's Rest and become a very rare Ogre Wizard)
I think they need to stay the same even after creation
3) If there are two races that can be the same class, should each race have different "takes" on that class at character creation? For example, should Dark Myr warriors favor spears initially, and lighter armor with more manueverability, while Human warriors favor swords and heavy plate, giving each race a sort of unique "style" of that class that the player could choose to either stay with or move away from? Or should all characters of the same class start off more or less identical, regardless of which race they select?
I would love for races to have enough impact to change the way they feel when played.
4) When a race (such as Gnomes) doesn't have any class options that use an entire category of items, does it make sense for members of that race to be able to learn how to craft those items in their starting city? Or, should they have to travel somewhere where those things are actually used? (Example: Should gnome blacksmiths be able to learn to create heavy armor in Skyhold if there are no gnomish heavy armor users?)
This could be interesting. Sure a gnome 'can' learn BS trade, but maybe he would need to travel to a new city to learn the starting skills. (meaning there are no Black smith NPCs anywhere near gnome land)
Overall, the class and races are ok to me. I doubt they will change anything now. But I do have to agree that one or two seem odd. e.g. kung fu sea-monkies. but, on the flip side, maybe after they got legs, they wanted to immediately learn how to hurt people with them because they used to hurt leviathans with their large mermaid fins... /shrug still strange to me now matter what the lore makes up.
it does kinda suck that i get 3 races to choose from for my cleric. blue hate (dark myr), blue dorf, or human (no night vision).... cleric should be on every race imo
Nephele said:1) Do the current race/class restrictions shown on the web page feel too restrictive to us or just right? Based on what we know about the races, what would we want to change about that list if we could?
Other than humans having way too many options, I think they are spot on.
Nephele said:2) Would people be more ok with the race and class restrictions if they were only there for character creation initially, and later on, through some sort of long and involved quest, you could actually switch your class to something else? (For example, you start as an Ogre Shaman but later, after a lot of hard work and determination, gain acceptance into the wizard's school in Syronai's Rest and become a very rare Ogre Wizard)
How would a race have meaningful differences in stats allow for a class not open to a particular race suddenly have access to it? Your idea of the Ogre Wizard is laughable given the Ogre race will, most likely, have a very low INT score. Their manapools would suffer making them very ineffective wizards. Sure, INT might not be the single most important stat, but it will be very very important and to have a quite low initial stat would need to be made up through high-stat gear...gear which would only further benefit those races with already high INT scores.
Nephele said:3) If there are two races that can be the same class, should each race have different "takes" on that class at character creation? For example, should Dark Myr warriors favor spears initially, and lighter armor with more manueverability, while Human warriors favor swords and heavy plate, giving each race a sort of unique "style" of that class that the player could choose to either stay with or move away from? Or should all characters of the same class start off more or less identical, regardless of which race they select?
I don't see why a race couldn't be more focused on a given weapon type over another based upon their history. Ogres favoring more blunt weapons while your Dark Myr favor spears. I'd say that in water a spear is a more effective weapon than a club or a sword. Makes sense given the Dark Myr history that Spears would be a well designed weapon.
Nephele said:4) When a race (such as Gnomes) doesn't have any class options that use an entire category of items, does it make sense for members of that race to be able to learn how to craft those items in their starting city? Or, should they have to travel somewhere where those things are actually used? (Example: Should gnome blacksmiths be able to learn to create heavy armor in Skyhold if there are no gnomish heavy armor users?)
Yes, a race that has no knowledge of or access to a given class should not have the knowledge to make those items specific to that class. Why should they put forth any effort to craft such items when nobody of that race can use them?
Second guessing how the game developers want their races/classes is where it starts that 100 different people have 100 different reasons why any race should be able to be any class and it won't stop until all races can be all class. And we then have mainstream MMO's without the RPG. Already seen it in another thread simular to this one. "Race X should be able to be Class Y because that's the combo I was wanting to play"
No thanks, I like them just like they are.
Leachim said:I seem to be one of the rare ones that enjoy no race class restrictions. I started my MMO gaming with Muds and EQ, then WOW, LOTRO, Guild Wars, ect..... However it wasn't untill the past few years that I've started playing D&D, and there any race can play any class, just may not be as "optimised" as other race/class combos.
When you make your own world and it's history and lore, then you can easily build in a logical sounding explination as to why some race can't do some class. So saying the lore doesn't support something feels a bit of an excuse because when you make the lore you can make it say whatever you want.
Others worry about race not meaning anything if you can pick from any class; that I just don't understand. By allowing full choices, race then becomes more meaningfull because you chose that race you wanted from a larger list, rather than being shoehorned into picking from just a few.
Well said. Once upon a time, players could make choices that weren't "ideal." But then a movement happened where we had to be saved from ourselves. Gnomes don't have the starting stats to be an efficient tank so let's just prevent that from happening to prevent people from making that mistake. Ogres aren't supposed to be casters so let's just prevent that from happening so people don't make that mistake. Let's also remove the ability for players to manually assign stats because people are bound to do that wrong. There are many memorable characters in my MMO history that were "oddballs" -- Tower, the gnome warrior from EQOA, was one of the first. Gnomes weren't ideal for tanking but that guy made a reputation for being an awesome tank despite being a gnome. That decision carried weight and his reputation is remembered 15+ years later while many others have been forgotten.
At the end of the day, these race/class restrictions go against the RPG of MMORPG. Lore is meant to provide history, not be used as a rail for character development. Players should be able to express individuality and make a character their own. They should be able to come up with their own backstory. There are countless reasons why someone might want to go against the grain and make an Elven Paladin, or maybe an Ogre Bard. Preventing that from happening is removing the ability to create your own story in the world. Forcing people to select from a prescribed list is basically assigning a massive rail at character select screen. Terminus is supposed to be a high fantasy world but it's impossible for a Dark Myr cleric to set down their tome and pick up a sword and shield? Even though they can also be warriors? One of the game tenets discusses a meaningful faction system.
What is more unrealistic? A Skar becoming allied with Elves, which in theory should be possible with the faction system? Or a Dark Myr transitioning from cleric to paladin? Dark Myr are depicted as one of the most vengeful races in the game but there is some imaginary barrier preventing them from transitioning to a more vengeful version of cleric? Why? Why is one possible but not the other when the former (skar allied with elves) is far more contradictive of established lore. I'm not a fan of the restrictions and hope that they eventually add some sort of betrayal quest or that progeny ends up allowing people to unlock the rare race/class combos. I also think it's inconsistent to cite lore as a reason for class/race restrictions from the adventuring sphere but not do the same for crafting. If it's impossible for gnomes to pick up a sword and shield, why would they have any history of being blacksmiths? Why can't halflings be paladins considering that they were cursed by the King of Specters and have a well-established tradition of wraith hunting?
Why can Skar be monks when they are notoriously shortsighted and lack endurance? "The way of the Monk is a path of harmony between the body and the soul. Through longstanding discipline Monks have transformed their very being into resilient, living weapons which they are able to wield against their enemies with devastating effect." So they are shortsighted but also capable of having longstanding discipline? I would rather see freeform roleplay where players can create their own story. Where players aren't protected from themselves just because a certain race would be "less than ideal" for a given class. There are slightly less than 50% of the possible race/class combinations slated to be available. We don't get the privilege of encountering a rare Ogre Paladin and being able to appreciate their story -- that player never had the chance to make one. It's conformity to trends and history. The wonderful tale of Drizzt Do'urden would never have been able to happen in another epic fantasy world if he had been forced to follow status quo. Pity.
Zorkon said:Second guessing how the game developers want their races/classes is where it starts that 100 different people have 100 different reasons why any race should be able to be any class and it won't stop until all races can be all class. And we then have mainstream MMO's without the RPG. Already seen it in another thread simular to this one. "Race X should be able to be Class Y because that's the combo I was wanting to play"
No thanks, I like them just like they are.
It just can’t be said any better than this. Totally agree!