Tigersin said:dorotea said:WoW as a game had strong points and weak points. At least at release it was a normal enough MMO. What differentiated it was the exceptionally immature level of the playerbase.
I remember reading posts on the EQ forums complaining that too many players were immature. Even if I believed in something like a maturity level, I would expect it to be low in mmos.
Player maturity is often derived from acceptable social norms within a game. These acceptable social norms are often set up early within a game and are established by a community majority mentality. Behaviors such as loot stealing, stealth pulling to wipe groups, and general disrespect/rudeness can be lessened if the community takes an active stand and outcasts such behavior. It also helps when developers are willing to uphold codes of conduct and enforce consequences for violating said code. When these two things happen the community improves and overall player maturity level increases as a result. Pantheon is in a very unique place when it comes to this aspect. The player community starts here and the overall mentality that these forums foster will transfer to the player base when the game launches.
If you don't believe in player maturity levels I would challenge you to go play a ranked game in League of Legends. Then I would have you compare that experience to every other online community that you have been a part of. I have been playing MMOs for 20 years and I have never had the displeasure of experiencing a community such as that of League. I would argue that its community is a result of its age population, the fact that it is a highly competitive environment, and the fact that bans hold absolutely no weight. It is, in my opinion, one of the worst communities you can ever be exposed to as a gamer. And I understand that league is a MOBA and not an RPG, but it is an excellent example of a player maturity level.
In my 20 years of gaming, I have only received bans in two games and only one of those was deserved on my part. The first occasion was because someone had hacked into my WoW account, sent all my gold to someone, and my account was flagged for gold selling as a result. The second time I deserved the ban and it was in League. Matchmaking paired me with someone who set in on me at the start of the game, I don't really remember what it was for but I suffered 30+ minutes of verbal abuse. Don't get me wrong I gave as good as I got, but I was still on the mild side of things at this point and this isn't what lead to me being banned. I started another game soon after that one had ended and matchmaking again put me with this person. He started in on me yet again and this is the point that I was done. I intentionally fed his lane, then I afked, and at the end of the game, I told him in vivid detail how he could dispatch himself. At this point, I knew I was going to get banned so I went and fed in 2-3 more games and tried so unorthodox build paths. I received a 14- day ban which was well deserved. I will admit that I should have handled the situation with more dignity, tact, and grace, but the ban didn't do much to correct my actions. It was honestly laughable and it was like receiving a 14-day vacation away from the community which I appreciated. The one thing that the ban did teach me though is to go into every game and instant mute everyone. When you don't have to hear their stupidity you don't have to deal with their stupidity, and when you don't have to deal with stupidity you can enjoy the game. The difference between these two bans is the one in WoW actually held weight as that was time loss that I had invested in my character, on the other hand, the league ban was laughable and felt more like a blessing.
I bring this point up to show a couple of things 1. Emotional maturity can be impacted by certain situations and conditions within the player base. 2. No one is perfect and we all can suffer from periods in which we don't necessarily make the best and mature choice. 3. Consequences for negative actions have to actually feel like a consequence for change to happen. 4. And yes, Leagues community is THAT bad.
Tigersin said:Good posts! That's all true. No sure how I feel about that last system you mentioned though! I'm so against it at the moment I'm afraid Pantheon couldn't salvage it. :) As for this thread and negativity, this behavior is human nature. And, just as we see fanbois hating on WOW, we will see others hating on Pantheon. It will be called the wow clone, we will see people asking for refunds, we will see complaints about monthly sub, we will see complaints about graphics..time..cost..etc. This has all happened before and none of it is new.
Yeah, I think that If Pantheon were to salvage it you wouldn't be able to recognize it afterward because it needs that much of a rework. Honestly, its implementation in BFA feels like everything else in BFA rushed out, half-assed, and not planned out very well. I mean it took them a whole patch to implement a vendor that would take the island currency that you had been collecting since day one of the expansion.
What the expeditions need to be are individual islands that are dynamic and everchanging. It's something that is not possible in WoW as they are instance based. I'm sure how or if it would be possible to implement but I could see them sorta like the Ocean of Tears in EQ. Every so often you would see new mobs take over an existing island and open new up new player opportunities based on which mob type/ faction held the island at that point in time. I definitely wouldn't tie artifact power into them XD.... honestly, that is a system that I NEVER want to see again.
WoW was a great game... til it wasn't. Starting during Burning Crusade (We'd stuck with EQ2 at first then eventually decided to give it a try) it seemed like such an improvement to the genre but we quit not long after WotLK came out. Why?
What seemed like great changes? Downtime was waaaay shortened, soloing was easier and you only had to group when you wanted to, leveling was waaaay faster, it ran well (coming from EQ2 this was a relief), you got rewarded for exploring, instances, yay! no more having to worry about other people interfering in our dungeon crawls, the world was very detailed and felt alive, animations were great, overall the polish of the game was amazing at it just felt so smooth. At the time, so many mmo's had come out (AC, EQ, DaoC, EQ2) and they all required more "effort" so it was a bit of a relief to not have to invest so much time and effort into a new game, seemed like a great idea! And it was fun. Fast progression! I can hop on for just a few minutes and progress!
The problem was that many of us didn't realize at the time was that a lot of these "features", the little conveniences, would acutally usher in the end of true MMORPG's and what made them great. Without the downtime and need for a group, the social experience was removed. Why return to play a solo game that just happens to be online? With leveling increased the connection to your character was removed (otoh, the animation was so good I think that actually helped keep you connected somewhat), but if you're not invested in your character why return? All those little rewards you get along the way (like for exploring new areas) eventually run out and at that point without any connection to the community or your character why return? Instances? Let's remove the MM from MMORPG. All those "bad ideas" progressively get worse with each expansion. Your experience kind of exists it's own bubble and and after a while, feels just as hollow. The bubble bursts... and you quit.
WoW devs confirmed that their goal was to copy EQ but make it simpler, more accessible for a casual audience, to make it polished and quick to play. They succeeded. But they killed the genre in the process.
WoW did many things right, like the detail of the world, the animations and the polish. They also did a lot of stuff wrong, especially for the long term health of a game (which because of it's success, bled over into the genre).
I'll probably play WoW Classic and enjoy it for what it is until Pantheon comes out or I get bored. I'm pretty sure I'll get bored first and one day, just won't log back in. Pantheon can't get here soon enough.
((just my 2 cents off the top of my head. Much of it's all been said before. *Don't want to turn this into a WoW bashing thread.* I liked it at the time and will probably go back for a time. I just really want (I think most of us here want) VR to take the positives and incorporate those into Pantheon. It would be a bit ironic if VR copied some of what Blizzard did well considering how much Bliz took from original EQ.))
This is getting deep. I like it. Here goes, put your helmet on.
MMOs (and gaming in general) weren't good decades ago. They were perfect for the geeks and nerds and dorks that didn't need the graphics and rendering; they just wanted something to do that didn't involve... you know, what other people do. These games had a genre that appealed to one group of gamers (space, fantasy, action) and might keep away another group of gamers. What 'mainstreaming' actually was at one time, was attempting to provide inclusion for those who weren't counted among the given geeks and nerds and dorks. To make the games more appealing to people who hand't considered the genre of game or gaming at all.
Now the above isn't a fact, nor is it the point. it is an opinion that I'm using to preface this question. Can mmos and gaming in general go back to being less inclusive? My guess is that they can't. I'm interested to see where PROTF will land.
edit: oh and there's a good chance they shouldn't! I'm just jumping down the rabbit hole.
Mass market appeal? I think that's in the mobile space now. That's why you see Blizzard pursuing it with mobile Diablo. There's a ton of money there. But it's not PC gaming and will never offer that depth of experience. So, I don't think there will ever be another PC game that draws in as many players as WoW did just because that market has moved toward mobile. But, if WoW did nothing else but expose more people to the idea of playing online rpgs that in itself created more gamers who might be looking for the experience that Pantheon will hopefully provide.
If interpret what you are asking correctly, as far as mmos being less inclusive, I would say more niche. In that regard, I certainly think a niche game can be successful these days. Eve online is still healthy and has had consistently steady numbers for years. I would call it a niche game. Many of the beta impressions I've seen about Classic are touting the enjoyable aspects of it to be right in line with Pantheon's game tenets (challenge, grouping, down time, etc.) So that niche may be larger than expected. Currently, I'm thinking that Pantheon will arrive right on time to be in sync with what the market is looking for. Hope so anyway.
wow innovated mmos i'll give them that. where wow went wrong was the injection of flying mounts and dungeon finder(not to be confused with lfg tool) plus lets be honest, the game now is stupidly easy and very mundane to play. it requires no critical thinking, socializing or commitment.
i remember ultima online when i was a kid, but i couldn't get into it as my parents were very much against gaming. so i the og wow was the first one i played coming from sc, wc3, diablo i knew the company was solid in their foundation.
it was pretty apparent with the influence activision had when they absorbed blizzard. the last great expansion that wow had was wotlk. i won't be going back to wow classic. i don't support activision blizzard and i'm willing to give vr a chance.