Hello folks,
It's probably already been discussed, so apologies, I'm new :)
But wanted to put this on the radar for consideration: MMO players are typically vain folks. More so if they are invested longterm in their characters. They nuture the way their character looks, more so if they can fully customize the appearance.
I hope this new MMO offers the ability to have a wardrobe function -- you can have an ugly piece of gear, but you can overwrite it with the pretty piece of gear that you like ... along with the ability to customize your own colours for your pieces of gear. And not just one colour per piece, but multiple colours per piece if that's possible?
And storage is typically a huge issue, it would be nice to have a separate storage panel for crafting gear, adventuring gear, and in-town gear; that you could swap out with a toggle depending on your needs.
You can also earn a lot of extra cash for the game by selling skins that function in the wardrobe appearance, so I hope it's something you are considering for Pantheon.
Thanks for listening :)
P.S. Is it possible to bring Vanguard's diplomacy "game" back? I loved and missed that a ton. No other game had it.
I certainly hope not. One of the coolest driving points for going to get your own gear in EQ was seeing it on another character. The "Wow, what is that and where did you get it?" effect. Now if there are dedicated cosmetic slots that don't interfere with that, but enhance ones's look? I'd be on board. Or at the very least if this sort of thing is unavoidable, the ability of one's client to turn off cosmetics and only show the real gear.
As for more intricacy in the game such as the Diplomacy thing from Vanguard? Heck yes, the more the better.
Many times in deed. I'd give you links to other threads but I'm lazy.
and also...
I hope there is no option for appearance gear, but that crafting is such an indepth experience in this game, you can take your stat desired gear to a good smith and they can tailor the look for you.
Yes it's been discussed to death but I'll give you short answers. Details are limited.
Thanks guys! :)
I do hope they consider it, mostly because it's a bottomless source of funding for the game. I'm thinking longterm -- and then they can sell dyes too etc. or you get the dyes in game from special drops or mobs.
I agree that crafted gear should have its own unique appearances, and be coveted. But it's something to work towards, same with adventure gear from bosses.
I just know how incredibly popular dyes and customizing are with players, and it would provide an easy source of revenue to help sustain development. :)
Darck said:Good lord the last thing we want to do is open the door for microtransactions in any way shape or form... thats a slippery slope leading nowhere good. I certainly hope any system is contained in the subscription model.
No it's not. Advanages are a slippery slope, but bying that cute outfit hardly does anything, but enhance their characters look whilst supporting the developers more than a common subscriber.
World of Warcraft / Final Fantasy XIV have both done it, in fact it is their biggest revenue (if not only revenue). You don't need those mounts/cosmetics/pets they're purely cosmetics - a part from their level boosters, however that is for a different audience than what Pantheon would ever attract and not persay pay to win, but more of a pay for convenience.
Just because some shady Asian MMOs have introduced cash shops with P2W features does not mean that all do it. What is so wrong with someone wanting to support the Devs further by buying a nice outfit from a shop?.. It doesn't mean that you can't mix and match gear found in game if cosmetics becomes a thing?..
Ashreon said:Darck said:Good lord the last thing we want to do is open the door for microtransactions in any way shape or form... thats a slippery slope leading nowhere good. I certainly hope any system is contained in the subscription model.
No it's not. Advanages are a slippery slope, but bying that cute outfit hardly does anything, but enhance their characters look whilst supporting the developers more than a common subscriber.
World of Warcraft / Final Fantasy XIV have both done it, in fact it is their biggest revenue (if not only revenue). You don't need those mounts/cosmetics/pets they're purely cosmetics - a part from their level boosters, however that is for a different audience than what Pantheon would ever attract and not persay pay to win, but more of a pay for convenience.
Just because some shady Asian MMOs have introduced cash shops with P2W features does not mean that all do it. What is so wrong with someone wanting to support the Devs further by buying a nice outfit from a shop?.. It doesn't mean that you can't mix and match gear found in game if cosmetics becomes a thing?..
Comes down to trust in the end. If you trust that they will never be tempted to add any pay to win items or services into the microtransactions, then your logic makes sense. I don't have that level of trust myself. And once the door is open to anything that gives any advantage in gameplay, its all downhill from there.
You could be right though, and the devs of this game are above that sort of disasterous temptation. Who knows? I prefer to have the posibility completely out, and have no store at all. Subscription model to drive content development with no chance or temptation to deviate.
WoW will always be a bad example of anything for me by the way, I lived thier downhill tumble and really don't want its influence anywhere near Pantheon. I get your point, but such an example leaves a bad taste for me.
Never played any asian MMOs, so no experience with FF anything here, no apeal was there to draw me in.
I like to stay in theme for discusions here, that being this game is intended to be in the spirit of old EQ just so you understand where I'm coming from with most thoughts.
Tigersin said:Yes it's been discussed to death but I'll give you short answers. Details are limited.
- Cosmetic gear is likely to be in the game and players will be able to show or hide the cosmetic gear of others. So people will see others as they wish to see them.
We don't know this. I despise the idea. This kind of mechanic ruins the integrity of the game. Unless you're roleplaying a color blind toon, nobody should ever see different things. This game is being built on the foundation that it is not just a game, but a virtual world. People can fashion quest all they want by obtaining the actual gear they think looks good/matches/whatever. That in and of itself will promote adventure, support the economy and increase the interactions between players. It will also be a part of horizontal scaling where a level 13 green helm might be the only shade of green you like for your fashion set and while you may be level 75 you will now get to to back to that area to farm it(or trade for it), thus using the same content multiple times for different people for different purposes, effectively increasing the size of the world and the duration that items have value.
Keno Monster said:We don't know this. I despise the idea. This kind of mechanic ruins the integrity of the game. Unless you're roleplaying a color blind toon, nobody should ever see different things. This game is being built on the foundation that it is not just a game, but a virtual world. People can fashion quest all they want by obtaining the actual gear they think looks good/matches/whatever. That in and of itself will promote adventure, support the economy and increase the interactions between players. It will also be a part of horizontal scaling where a level 13 green helm might be the only shade of green you like for your fashion set and while you may be level 75 you will now get to to back to that area to farm it(or trade for it), thus using the same content multiple times for different people for different purposes, effectively increasing the size of the world and the duration that items have value.
Who is we?
Are you upset about cosmetic gear or about people not seeing your cosmetic gear?
Did VR state that this won't be a thing now?
Wow you gave me so many questions! LOL
EDIT: I'll spend some time looking for a more recent post but if I'm wrong about the cosmetic toggle, I would appreciate a ref. so I don't embarrass myself any further. Thanks <3
DOUBLE EDIT:
Please do not create any more topic on Cosmetic items.
Tigersin said:Keno Monster said:We don't know this. I despise the idea. This kind of mechanic ruins the integrity of the game. Unless you're roleplaying a color blind toon, nobody should ever see different things. This game is being built on the foundation that it is not just a game, but a virtual world. People can fashion quest all they want by obtaining the actual gear they think looks good/matches/whatever. That in and of itself will promote adventure, support the economy and increase the interactions between players. It will also be a part of horizontal scaling where a level 13 green helm might be the only shade of green you like for your fashion set and while you may be level 75 you will now get to to back to that area to farm it(or trade for it), thus using the same content multiple times for different people for different purposes, effectively increasing the size of the world and the duration that items have value.
We don't know what?Who is we?
Are you upset about cosmetic gear or about people not seeing your cosmetic gear?
Did VR state that this won't be a thing now?
Wow you gave me so many questions! LOL
EDIT: I'll spend some time looking for a more recent post but if I'm wrong about the cosmetic toggle, I would appreciate a ref. so I don't embarrass myself any further. Thanks <3DOUBLE EDIT:
From Kils, February 9, 2018We have addressed this many times and you will be able to see what we decide once you're in-game after launch.Please do not create any more topic on Cosmetic items.
Thank you for finding a source.
So .... I can see both sides. Part of me has read a lot of replies from people that 'hate players who dance around in fake gear and want to turn it off' while I, myself, feel like if cosmetic gear is in the game everyone should be forced to see it. I mean, I really am in your boat I guess. BUT... like so many issues I trust in the decades of experience these guys have with games and if they do this to please the majority (this one thing, please don't quote this and talk about a business failing or idkwtf else) then I won't cry about it. I mean, it isn't the biggest issue by a long shot. It sounds like I'm not on your side but I am.
Tigersin said:
- Cosmetic gear is likely to be in the game and players will be able to show or hide the cosmetic gear of others. So people will see others as they wish to see them.
- Storage is a big issue but I know nothing about panels and gear swapping.
- VR hasn't told us that they plan to sell skins to make money for the game. They aren't in favor of that at this time.
Tigersin's answer is correct as of the last info I have heard as well. Sorry I can't post a link to the source, but I bet Bazgrim could find it!
Section 15.0
"Visionary Realms strongly believes that the revenue model of an MMO needs to match the game’s target audience. Because of this, Pantheon will not be ‘freemium’ or have ‘cash shops’ -- building your character and advancing in-game will be based on time invested and tactics used, not on how much money the player has in real life."
It is clear that VR does not want to have cash shops in-game. Thank all Gods. Of course, this does not preclude selling things on their website.
Selling extra character slots, name changes, gender changes, changes in appearance, race changes, server transfers, transfer of items between servers etc. is something MMOs have done way before the era of microtransactions. We can and have debated the pros and cons of allowing any of these things but they do have ample precedent from subscription based games. I do not consider sale of purely cosmetic items that do not benefit the character in any way to be inconsistent with Section 15 though I *do* consider it undesirable and hope they do not feel it necessary. With all respect to VR it is exceedingly hard to remain standing when the slope gets that skippery.
Personally, I think everything should only be obtainable in the game itself. As some have pointed out, EQ held the person to what they accomplished, so your look was a direct coorelation to the success of your efforts in the game. From basic looks of the armor to fancy animations on the gear, it was a coveted process of obtaining that look and it was a status to have such to be displayed. This makes "how you look" an important part of the progression in game play. A store that sells cosmetics disregards this element of play, allowing people to pay their way to a look rather than earn it.
Online stores are dangerous, and usually end up pushing the line of acceptance over time. They often first start off with just cosmetics, then exp potions and other cheat elements are added over time. Even if the company never directly provides "gear" as such, they usually end up offering short cut enchancements to circumvent game play for paying money (ie consumables for teleportation, run speed, buffs, exp enchancement, etc...).
dorotea said:Selling extra character slots, name changes, gender changes, changes in appearance, race changes, server transfers, transfer of items between servers etc. is something MMOs have done way before the era of microtransactions. We can and have debated the pros and cons of allowing any of these things but they do have ample precedent from subscription based games. I do not consider sale of purely cosmetic items that do not benefit the character in any way to be inconsistent with Section 15 though I *do* consider it undesirable and hope they do not feel it necessary. With all respect to VR it is exceedingly hard to remain standing when the slope gets that skippery.
Agreed, but back then when they implemented a lot of that, there were many of us who objected very strongly to it as this was the begining of the RMT era of MMOs. In fact, a lot of the objections players had to the directions of the games design in EQ were squelched by Sony (ie they shut down the Official EQ forums for a while due to it) and there was a time when the developers themselves actually provided detailed arguments on the forums as to why RMT was harmful to game play and design (all removed by Sony obviously as they eventually became an RMT provider themselves).
I think any form of store will set the stage for such more easily and based on history of games and this issue, it is not simply possible a game will eventually sell some form of advancment in that store, but very likely.
I don't want silly cosmetics or the ability to 'buy' cosmetics that look way cooler than something you've ever earned, BUT I really want to be able to 'store' and 'reuse' the look of an item I've gained and used before.
I don't care if there are restrictions like having to consume the 'stored' item or having to have worn the stored item for 100 combats or whatever to ensure non-frivolous usage, but I don't want to be forced to look like a motley jester just because some other players have some weird need to be able to know what my item stats are at a glance.
I have the opposite of 'vanity' or some kind of grunge vanity myself. I mostly prefer my characters to look gritty and realistic rather than shiny and 'heroic'. In most games, like EQ even, the 'better' equipment you got, the more outlandish and bizarre it looked and mostly I felt my character looked more and more ridiculous.
I much prefered games like LOTRO where you could use the look of anything that you had worn in that slot, though I would further restrict it to only being able to use a look of an item that is the same 'class' as the one you are actually wearing or make it some kind of permanent transmog rather than a wardrobe 'override' no matter what you are wearing.
To me it added a whole other dimension to the game where you would seek out gear for stats *and* would seek out other gear for it's look and combine the two to achieve what was optimum for you personally.
Oh, and no, having a switch so that players that want to 'see through' cosmetics can do so is not the answer. If half players switch off the look I've designed, then it makes it totally pointless.
Darck said:I certainly hope not. One of the coolest driving points for going to get your own gear in EQ was seeing it on another character. The "Wow, what is that and where did you get it?" effect....
/agree
I can't remember the name of the item but back in the Luclin days, there was a set of leather pants (Druid, etc.) that were purple. They were the only thing like them in the game and everyone was "gah-gah" over them and they became a super valuable items, simply for the look and the phenomenon you describe.
Then they added dyes and everything about that motivationg got dissolved.
Then they added aesthetics in the marketplace and it got obliterated.
It's, frankly stupid to see a level 1 noob player killing yard trash, but they are dressed like a level 100 wealthy knight. Their appearance was purchased and is no reflection of their status in-game.
It is ruinous to the game I feel.
fazool said:Darck said:I certainly hope not. One of the coolest driving points for going to get your own gear in EQ was seeing it on another character. The "Wow, what is that and where did you get it?" effect....
/agree
I can't remember the name of the item but back in the Luclin days, there was a set of leather pants (Druid, etc.) that were purple. They were the only thing like them in the game and everyone was "gah-gah" over them and they became a super valuable items, simply for the look and the phenomenon you describe.
Then they added dyes and everything about that motivationg got dissolved.
Then they added aesthetics in the marketplace and it got obliterated.
It's, frankly stupid to see a level 1 noob player killing yard trash, but they are dressed like a level 100 wealthy knight. Their appearance was purchased and is no reflection of their status in-game.
It is ruinous to the game I feel.
Noobs looking like wealthy knights?... we saw ridiculous twinks in EQ all the time.
Done right, wardrobe items can be an additional factor motivating desirablity of items. People will want to quest for stat items *and* quest for items that look good then mix the two in whatever mechanic allows it.
In LotRO, I would travel the world collecting as many gear items as possible for every slot, no matter the stats. Talking to all the crafters to see what they could make. Checking out even out-levelled quest lines to see if they gave interesting looking armor rewards. All so I had a large range of possible looks in my 'wardrobe'. It was exciting to get a new item no matter the stats. As long as it had a different look it was still of some possible use.
Looking cool is just another ambition one may have for one's characters, no different than being powerful. If appearance is your thing, work for it by playing the game, don't make a shortcut with your RL-wallet. When I see somebody looking impressive or beautiful, I want to rest assured that it reflects in-game achievements, not shopping. If Dressmaker became a tradeskill, and you could buy fashion items with in-game coin, that's an entirely different story that I would have objections to.
I don't mind supporting VR's efforts to make a business, but let a monthly fee take care of that.
disposalist said:fazool said:Darck said:I certainly hope not. One of the coolest driving points for going to get your own gear in EQ was seeing it on another character. The "Wow, what is that and where did you get it?" effect....
/agree
I can't remember the name of the item but back in the Luclin days, there was a set of leather pants (Druid, etc.) that were purple. They were the only thing like them in the game and everyone was "gah-gah" over them and they became a super valuable items, simply for the look and the phenomenon you describe.
Then they added dyes and everything about that motivationg got dissolved.
Then they added aesthetics in the marketplace and it got obliterated.
It's, frankly stupid to see a level 1 noob player killing yard trash, but they are dressed like a level 100 wealthy knight. Their appearance was purchased and is no reflection of their status in-game.
It is ruinous to the game I feel.
Noobs looking like wealthy knights?... we saw ridiculous twinks in EQ all the time.
Done right, wardrobe items can be an additional factor motivating desirablity of items. People will want to quest for stat items *and* quest for items that look good then mix the two in whatever mechanic allows it.
In LotRO, I would travel the world collecting as many gear items as possible for every slot, no matter the stats. Talking to all the crafters to see what they could make. Checking out even out-levelled quest lines to see if they gave interesting looking armor rewards. All so I had a large range of possible looks in my 'wardrobe'. It was exciting to get a new item no matter the stats. As long as it had a different look it was still of some possible use.
Well, Noob isn't the same thing as a twink to be honest. I understand the point, but the "twink" actually had a person earn their way up to get the gear... wait.. hmm...
Nope, with the player trade system, I have no argument to make. As long as a player can get on and buy a bunch of gear with plat, then there is no real argument to be made for segregating those who "earn" thier items from those who buy them.
Therefore I have to agree with you, the objections that players be restricted from having random appearance items because they should have to "earn" them in the game is an invalid argument as long as the system allows people to purchase the rewards of those ventures over a player trade system.
I withdraw from this discussion as with such allowances, my points are meaningless.
I have no problem with them having cosmetic items as long as I can turn them off (and I will).
However when I'm paying a subscription I expect the Devs to be working on the game itself. I don't consider cash shop fluffy pink boa's to be part of the game. I Know it's not part of the game I will consume. Now if that fluffy pink boa is a quest reward, and a friend or my wife wants it, THEN there is something for me as I will run the quest with them to help them get the silly thing.
I'm here to have fun, and I don't see flopping down $1.50 for a line of computer code to be much fun.
Zorkon said:I have no problem with them having cosmetic items as long as I can turn them off (and I will).
However when I'm paying a subscription I expect the Devs to be working on the game itself. I don't consider cash shop fluffy pink boa's to be part of the game. I Know it's not part of the game I will consume. Now if that fluffy pink boa is a quest reward, and a friend or my wife wants it, THEN there is something for me as I will run the quest with them to help them get the silly thing.
I'm here to have fun, and I don't see flopping down $1.50 for a line of computer code to be much fun.
I don't mean to be argumentitive and I also do not want a cosmetics cash shop with weird fluff items in it, but...
...we are all expecting to pay cash for 'lines of code' - any computer game is cash for lines of code - and some people feel the look of a character they play is very much a 'part of the game'.
If you can 'turn off' the look of someone's character you are making a significant part of their game largely pointless.
As I've said before, it's not the end of the world to me if there are no cosmetics (and I'd prefer some kind of more restrictive transmog or wardrobe system) but if you make it 'ignorable' with a switch there may as well not be one.
disposalist said:Zorkon said:I have no problem with them having cosmetic items as long as I can turn them off (and I will).
However when I'm paying a subscription I expect the Devs to be working on the game itself. I don't consider cash shop fluffy pink boa's to be part of the game. I Know it's not part of the game I will consume. Now if that fluffy pink boa is a quest reward, and a friend or my wife wants it, THEN there is something for me as I will run the quest with them to help them get the silly thing.
I'm here to have fun, and I don't see flopping down $1.50 for a line of computer code to be much fun.
I don't mean to be argumentitive and I also do not want a cosmetics cash shop with weird fluff items in it, but...
...we are all expecting to pay cash for 'lines of code' - any computer game is cash for lines of code - and some people feel the look of a character they play is very much a 'part of the game'.
If you can 'turn off' the look of someone's character you are making a significant part of their game largely pointless.
As I've said before, it's not the end of the world to me if there are no cosmetics (and I'd prefer some kind of more restrictive transmog or wardrobe system) but if you make it 'ignorable' with a switch there may as well not be one.
This is exactly why I think I am about to give up on gaming altogether and why I find communication with the general public to be an excercise in futility.
I don't have a problem with "costumes/outfits" but they are not gear, so once you enter combat, your gear, no matter how discombobulated it may be, should be on, even if it's an auto-switch function once you take damage.
I just don't want to see an Ogre in a pink Tutu fighting a dragon. :)
disposalist said:Zorkon said:I have no problem with them having cosmetic items as long as I can turn them off (and I will).
However when I'm paying a subscription I expect the Devs to be working on the game itself. I don't consider cash shop fluffy pink boa's to be part of the game. I Know it's not part of the game I will consume. Now if that fluffy pink boa is a quest reward, and a friend or my wife wants it, THEN there is something for me as I will run the quest with them to help them get the silly thing.
I'm here to have fun, and I don't see flopping down $1.50 for a line of computer code to be much fun.
I don't mean to be argumentitive and I also do not want a cosmetics cash shop with weird fluff items in it, but...
...we are all expecting to pay cash for 'lines of code' - any computer game is cash for lines of code - and some people feel the look of a character they play is very much a 'part of the game'.
If you can 'turn off' the look of someone's character you are making a significant part of their game largely pointless.
As I've said before, it's not the end of the world to me if there are no cosmetics (and I'd prefer some kind of more restrictive transmog or wardrobe system) but if you make it 'ignorable' with a switch there may as well not be one.
"Turning off the look of others" cosmetics" has already been confirmed by Brad as a likely solution.