Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

What if most quests never directly involved combat?

    • 1785 posts
    May 18, 2019 4:19 PM PDT

    I wanted to throw something out there for discussion.  No right or wrong answer here, just curious as to everyone's opinions and impressions.

    To pass the time while we wait for Pantheon, I've been playing a few MMOs.  Some of those are pretty heavy on the questing, as you might guess.  To be honest, I'm pretty sick of variations on "go kill a bunch of these mobs" and I think most of you probably are as well.

    However, in one of those games, I recently did a quest that involved no killing whatsoever.  I was investigating a murder, and I had to go around and find crime scenes and look for clues.  The clues eventually led me to a suspect, but then I had to question people who knew him to find out where he was.  When I got to the suspect's last known location, there were signs of a struggle, and the trail had gone cold... for now.  I suspect there's a followup soon, and eventually I'll probably have a fight with someone.  But I've spent a couple hours on this quest now with no combat of any sort involved.  Just investigating, gathering clues, and trying to puzzle out next steps from there.

    So my question:  What if the vast majority of quests were like this?  Mysteries to solve and stories to unravel, but not ones that always involved slaughtering hordes of monsters or running simple errands? What if when combat did happen, it was targeted, and meaningful, and not just something you were going to probably fight anyway?

    Would that make people more likely to do quests in Pantheon?  Or not really?

     


    This post was edited by Nephele at May 18, 2019 4:19 PM PDT
    • 1399 posts
    May 18, 2019 7:31 PM PDT

    Nephele said:

    I wanted to throw something out there for discussion.  No right or wrong answer here, just curious as to everyone's opinions and impressions.

    To pass the time while we wait for Pantheon, I've been playing a few MMOs.  Some of those are pretty heavy on the questing, as you might guess.  To be honest, I'm pretty sick of variations on "go kill a bunch of these mobs" and I think most of you probably are as well.

    However, in one of those games, I recently did a quest that involved no killing whatsoever.  I was investigating a murder, and I had to go around and find crime scenes and look for clues.  The clues eventually led me to a suspect, but then I had to question people who knew him to find out where he was.  When I got to the suspect's last known location, there were signs of a struggle, and the trail had gone cold... for now.  I suspect there's a followup soon, and eventually I'll probably have a fight with someone.  But I've spent a couple hours on this quest now with no combat of any sort involved.  Just investigating, gathering clues, and trying to puzzle out next steps from there.

    So my question:  What if the vast majority of quests were like this?  Mysteries to solve and stories to unravel, but not ones that always involved slaughtering hordes of monsters or running simple errands? What if when combat did happen, it was targeted, and meaningful, and not just something you were going to probably fight anyway?

    Would that make people more likely to do quests in Pantheon?  Or not really?

     

    Love the idea. As for vast majority, I'm not sure how that would fly, but I would certainly like to see an abundance of quest like you describe. I for one am so tired of killing mobs. Quest or not, after 15 years it just gets old. I'm counting on Pantheon offering so much more than just that. Quest as you describe could keep my interest for a good while. Better yet if they could change up randomly.

    • 372 posts
    May 18, 2019 8:37 PM PDT

    I can' even guess the answer as the majority aren't forums regulars but.. I'm interested. In a space game I play, there's a mission to find out what happend at an abandon space station and the first time I floated inside I was sure I was going to die.  Cool feeling to get from a game in 2019.  No combat.  Just a mission to recover some info. Setting the mood is everything for these kinds of quests and if VR can pull it off, I would be very happy. 

    • 388 posts
    May 18, 2019 9:38 PM PDT

    I would be 100% on board with this. The reward for this type of quest is the exploration aspect of each 'step' of the storyline. The 'ways' they could take this is unlimited. Would be fun. 

    I really wish Pantheon could throw in some killer Voice acted quests as well. I loved swtor and eso because of the rich voice acted quests. 

     

    • 1584 posts
    May 19, 2019 4:32 AM PDT

    I would love quest like this, but I wouldn't want most of the quests to be like this but enough of them to keep it honest for sure.

    • 73 posts
    May 19, 2019 4:57 AM PDT
    I remember doing questing similar to this in Vanguard for diplomacy gear, cards and exp. This type of questing is far more immersive than mailman and collection questing! I hope there are many like this.
    • 696 posts
    May 19, 2019 5:57 AM PDT

    Nephele said:

    I wanted to throw something out there for discussion.  No right or wrong answer here, just curious as to everyone's opinions and impressions.

    To pass the time while we wait for Pantheon, I've been playing a few MMOs.  Some of those are pretty heavy on the questing, as you might guess.  To be honest, I'm pretty sick of variations on "go kill a bunch of these mobs" and I think most of you probably are as well.

    However, in one of those games, I recently did a quest that involved no killing whatsoever.  I was investigating a murder, and I had to go around and find crime scenes and look for clues.  The clues eventually led me to a suspect, but then I had to question people who knew him to find out where he was.  When I got to the suspect's last known location, there were signs of a struggle, and the trail had gone cold... for now.  I suspect there's a followup soon, and eventually I'll probably have a fight with someone.  But I've spent a couple hours on this quest now with no combat of any sort involved.  Just investigating, gathering clues, and trying to puzzle out next steps from there.

    So my question:  What if the vast majority of quests were like this?  Mysteries to solve and stories to unravel, but not ones that always involved slaughtering hordes of monsters or running simple errands? What if when combat did happen, it was targeted, and meaningful, and not just something you were going to probably fight anyway?

    Would that make people more likely to do quests in Pantheon?  Or not really?

     

     

    I think if you have an upgrade, or good gear for that quest at the apporiate level, then people will do them regardless. If quests aren't going to be exp efficient, then they should have some sort of good reward that will benefit the player doing it. So I guess it will depend on the reward for most, and some will do it just to say they did it. This goes for all quests if it is going to be inefficient in exp with bad rewards.


    This post was edited by Watemper at May 19, 2019 5:58 AM PDT
    • 197 posts
    May 19, 2019 6:30 AM PDT

    I like these type of quests as well. I think they bring you deeper into the world, and if you know the lore, can be very satisfying. The caveat is that this demands a higher level of writing and storytelling to make them engaging. It seems like VR has the team who could realistically do this well given the attention the lore has received so far.

    The other consideration is a quality over quantity. Would we accept less quests for better quality ones?  I’m for anything that offers a more thoughtful approach to your play. I think there is a place for less involved quests too, but I would like to see this be the standard. 

    • 3852 posts
    May 19, 2019 8:51 AM PDT

    Good question. 

    At the risk of oversimplifying I think we can divide quests into three different types.

    1. Kill X enemies or bring back Y items obtained from enemies. About as simple as it gets - quick and easy if there are enough enemies around and they aren't heavily contested by other players. Not what I would call exciting but to me at least a pleasant change from killing enemies for the xp per kill or loot per kill without anyone asking you to do so. Good to have but pretty marginal - a game that relies on these to keep players' interest up has real issues.

    2. More complex quests that involve killing. Often chains of quests. Kill things or go to a defended area to get an item, for example. Use the item on enemies or in another defended area. These can be long and complicated - take days or even weeks to complete a linked chain of them - and if truly difficult can give excellent rewards - epic or legendary items for example (terminology varies by game) and very good experience (although usually very *bad* experience per hour spent so they aren't exactly a way to gain levels too fast).

    This type of quest tends to be more interesting - it can also give nice background about the world and the races and the factions. I hope we have a lot of them as long as the xp per hour isn't high enough to allow people to level-up too fast. It isn't quest xp that matters it is quest xp per time spent, of course.

    3. Quests that can be done without killing or where the killing is purely incidental (mobs happen to be in the way when you go to the area you need to be). Many times these are just as bad or worse than the kill x enemies quests. Pick up X clumps of flowers is traditional and if anything *more* boring than kill X wolves. Too easy to one-shot a flower. Or the infamous delivery quests - here is a letter - take it to Fred half a zone away and return with a signed receipt. Often used to guide us where to go in games that rely on going from quest hub to quest hub to quest hub. As one might guess I am not a great fan of these quests.

    Occasionally the non-combat quests are interesting. This is what Nephele is referring to. Go around town talking to people and eventually decide who committed a murder. Best if done where certain elements of the quest are random so we cannot just look up the answer. Also best if done with decisions that actually matter- get a wrong answer at the end or maybe even to a sub-part of the quest and you fail. Forever. No repeating the quest until your next character gets there. 

    Often these are puzzle quests - aaarghhh I hate puzzle quests but as long as they aren't mandatory to advance a story-line or open up a new area I don't object to them. Here too success shouldn't be certain as long as you try often enough. Failure should be possible. Where is the fun of success if success is certain. Plus it makes sure that we actually *read* each part of the quest. 

    To answer the question - I think non-combat quests of *this* type (not the pick x flowers quest or visit Fred quest) are a nice change from the other types of quests or just mindless grinding. But just as we overwhelmingly feel that death should have consequences so that winning or losing a fight matters - the same should apply to these quests. No guaranteed success to anyone with patience to click different possible answers over and over until getting the right one.


    This post was edited by dorotea at May 19, 2019 8:54 AM PDT
    • 209 posts
    May 19, 2019 10:16 AM PDT

    Good topic, Nephele. I don't know if I would personally want a "vast majority" of quests to not involve combat, but I would like to see a good mixture of combat and non-combat quests. I definitely think it's the puzzles and intrigue that make a quest fun, whether it contains combat or not. I like what we've seen of the perception system so far -- how it seems to give the player clues without outright telling them what to do. This approach -- along with not making quests so numerous that they end up seeming like a trivial chore -- is what makes for enjoyable questing in my book.

    • 1315 posts
    May 19, 2019 10:46 AM PDT

    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/9133/handling-of-missions-quests/view/post_id/17416

    In the above link I broke down quests into Knight Errant Quests, Citizen tasks and commerce quests.  I could easily see discovery/ perception quests that have little to no combat falling under both the Errant Quests and the Citizen Tasks.

    The biggest issue I see with purely discovery quests is making them non trivial without requiring dynamically adjusting content. Actually scripting discovery quests typically is reduced to a location tracker and basic NPC Dialogue with only one possible solution.  To keep discovery interesting and value added the objectives need to be non predictable and ideally more than a single end state which is dependant on player choices and skill checks.

    Otherwise I think discovery quests are a good tool in the developers tool box but I think there are good reasons to include all types of quests and only having discovery quests is about as bad as having only kill count quests.

    • 193 posts
    May 20, 2019 8:05 AM PDT

    Nephele said: 

    So my question:  What if the vast majority of quests were like this?  Mysteries to solve and stories to unravel, but not ones that always involved slaughtering hordes of monsters or running simple errands? What if when combat did happen, it was targeted, and meaningful, and not just something you were going to probably fight anyway?

    Would that make people more likely to do quests in Pantheon?  Or not really?

     

    Yes, yes and yes. I don't think I'd want to see it get to Secret World levels of intricacy, but yes.

    • 1033 posts
    May 20, 2019 10:53 AM PDT

    Nephele said:

    I wanted to throw something out there for discussion.  No right or wrong answer here, just curious as to everyone's opinions and impressions.

    To pass the time while we wait for Pantheon, I've been playing a few MMOs.  Some of those are pretty heavy on the questing, as you might guess.  To be honest, I'm pretty sick of variations on "go kill a bunch of these mobs" and I think most of you probably are as well.

    However, in one of those games, I recently did a quest that involved no killing whatsoever.  I was investigating a murder, and I had to go around and find crime scenes and look for clues.  The clues eventually led me to a suspect, but then I had to question people who knew him to find out where he was.  When I got to the suspect's last known location, there were signs of a struggle, and the trail had gone cold... for now.  I suspect there's a followup soon, and eventually I'll probably have a fight with someone.  But I've spent a couple hours on this quest now with no combat of any sort involved.  Just investigating, gathering clues, and trying to puzzle out next steps from there.

    So my question:  What if the vast majority of quests were like this?  Mysteries to solve and stories to unravel, but not ones that always involved slaughtering hordes of monsters or running simple errands? What if when combat did happen, it was targeted, and meaningful, and not just something you were going to probably fight anyway?

    Would that make people more likely to do quests in Pantheon?  Or not really?

     

     

    Sounds like some of "The Secret World" quests. 

    I would design quests for those who are interested in questing. Those who are not will cheat their way through, bypass the content as fast as they can anyway. I only believe in not implementing features that aid them in this process (ie bouncing balls, giving them the answers, or directing them where to go).

    I enjoyed The Secret World quests (despised the combat system,but loved the quests) as they really focused on appealing to those who would envelop themselves in the quests. I really liked how with some quests, the solutions were process based (ie you couldn't apply a static solution, you had to understand the process to implement a dynamic result) and so those who sought cheat sites would often be out of luck (for instance, one quest required you to understand mathematical series and apply a solution that was dynamically generated so you could not cheat it, you had to learn it). This really provided a feeling of accomplishment in play (I spent quite a while on the morris code quest to learn it and then translate the signal) and even though some were able to cheat the quests, it didn't bother me as I really enjoyed the difficulty and diversity in the various obstacles in play.

    So, I think all types of quests should exist, even kill quests (though I think putting in objectives like "go kill x mobs" is just lazy inept design by developers). As for if people will do them or not, if the worry is that most of Pantheons base will not want to do quests because they aren't modern MMO design of go kill X mobs and grind out something, well.. I think VR will have missed its target audience  as even EQ questing wasn't all those "kill x mobs", in fact I would say a lot of them while involving some form of combat, were more focused on the story and investigation of a quest, not a simple "Kill this" resolution.

    • 1033 posts
    May 20, 2019 10:53 AM PDT

    Double post


    This post was edited by Tanix at May 20, 2019 10:55 AM PDT
    • 752 posts
    May 20, 2019 11:36 AM PDT

    Totally on board with having mutiple different unique questlines and ways to complete them.

    I don't see why this can't happen? Isn't this one of the main selling points of the perception system? You happen upon a campfire with blood spilled on the ground.... what happened?

    • 1428 posts
    May 20, 2019 12:05 PM PDT

    here's an idea for a quest:

    class dynamic quest!

     

    'hey there bard, i need some help.  the tavern is really busy and i know you are just here to play some music, but could you take a few orders and wait the tables during your breaks?'

     

    'hey there enchanter, i need some help.  the tavern is really busy and i know you are just passing through, but could you throw some jokes when the bard is on break?'

     

    'hey there warrior, i need some help.  the tavern is really busy and i know you are here for some drinks, but could you move some barrels in the back?'

     

    'hey there rogue, i need some help.  the tavern isn't doing so hot and i know you have certain- skills.  could you sabotage my competitor?'

     

    'hey there ranger, i need some help.  the tavern needs more meat.  could you go kill and collect 5 boar meat?'

     

    oh wait just defaulted to a kill quest...

    • 1714 posts
    May 20, 2019 2:20 PM PDT

    Fun is fun. If they make good content I will consume it. 

    • 2756 posts
    May 21, 2019 4:08 AM PDT

    I am all for quests that are more complex and interesting (early Secret World was excellent for this), but, to be honest, I love the combat.  The 'game' part of RPG is combat.  The non-combat passtimes, like crafting, make things that are for combat.  The abilities that define your class/role are combat abilities.

    I would definitely like some puzzles and diplomacy and whatnot and quests that are simply "kill 6 rats" for no reason aren't great, but the "vast majority" being non-combat?  I just don't see why you'd want to.

    • 1033 posts
    May 21, 2019 9:33 AM PDT

    disposalist said:

    I am all for quests that are more complex and interesting (early Secret World was excellent for this), but, to be honest, I love the combat.  The 'game' part of RPG is combat.  The non-combat passtimes, like crafting, make things that are for combat.  The abilities that define your class/role are combat abilities.

    I would definitely like some puzzles and diplomacy and whatnot and quests that are simply "kill 6 rats" for no reason aren't great, but the "vast majority" being non-combat?  I just don't see why you'd want to.

    Game play comes in many forms. Combat is one form, there are many others. The point is having obstacles to which there is a quantified process of resolution. I understand your point though, I too enjoy the "combat" form of obstacles in play (many cRPGs of the early years were heavily laden with combat advancement). Game play with combat is the application of your character development combined with various solutions in play to defeat a given encounter. With puzzles akin to the "Secret World", they are less focused on the cRPG side and more focused on the players intellectual ability to find a solution.

    I would however like to see more of a non-combat focused solution to quests and Vanguard had a system akin to this with Diplomacy. What I would like to see is them take the basic concepts of player attributes and the statistics of skills and make them the requirements in some quests. This however would require a bit more attention to sub stat attributes to enhance those elements of play. For instance, Chrisma is commonly used as the main stat to represent checks in social interaction. It encompasses your comliness, your ability to speak, inspire, seduce, fast talk, etc..., but what I would like to see is them break each attribute into sub attributes.

    Why? For each complex sub node, you provide a means of game play options in play. Instead of a quest being simple in direction and focus using a simplistic physical resolution, it could then have elements where it tests players attributes to advance, split off, or change focus to the resolution. Basically, it allows quest development to get very complex in play and it allows the player to fine tune their characters in focus.

    That is, take the attribute Chrisma:

    It might be comprised of numerous sub elements such as Comliness (how attactive you look), speaking skills like seduction, fast talk, or leadership, etc.. and all these sub elements could provide the means for a quest developer to allow for different approaches or conditions that restrict or evolve a quest in different ways based on the players devleopment and interactions within the quest.

    Complex? Yes.. but with such, it opens the door to more variable and advanced play, a depth of interaction that would be draw the player in and given individual meaning to the directions that various people take in developing their characters. With each branch in development, we increase the individual merit in that selection, a uniquness in play and focus.

    The sky is the limit, the options are limitless...

    • 145 posts
    May 23, 2019 4:03 PM PDT

    well if you are sick of the kill quests then logically if most quests became the way your describing then you might begin to get sick of quests that do not involve combat. put your faith in the devs and hope that there are a miriad of quests ranging from straight kill quests to the type of quests you are describing

    • 91 posts
    May 23, 2019 7:15 PM PDT
    Do we get sick of kill quests because there are so many quests or because they are too short? I’ve found catalogue quests enjoyable while I get quickly tired of running back to the npc’s for the next step. At the same time, short quests of any kind are helpful for in character training. Everything else I love is tied to an expedition with lore and exploration.
  • May 28, 2019 7:53 PM PDT
    Take a good look at my character. I'm not dressed in full leather with no undies all the time because it's comfortable. The crusty orc blood is not this season's chic fashion statement. I carry 4 swords and a really spiky mace in my backpack and no toothbrushes or magnifying glasses. So when I show up for a quest, I'm more likely looking to take heads than take tea, or searching for murderous revenge than searching for clues to a murder.
    That being said, it's a nice change to sometimes have the option for a non violent solution to a quest. Reminds me what it is like to have compassion and humanity err halfling-ity?
    • 233 posts
    June 11, 2019 2:32 AM PDT

    There should be various quests that involve kiling and not killing.
    However it is really hard to come up with ideas.
    Besides solving crimes i can think of few passive quests that would be any good.

    • 160 posts
    June 11, 2019 7:33 AM PDT

    There was once a man who was raised on almost no other food but cheese.

    One day, someone gave him a salad, made from lettuce and pumpkin seeds, and he liked it; it was a nice change from his usual food.

    He then asked "what would it be like if kids were given mostly lettuce and pumpkin seeds?"

     

    Someone told him that it would be essentially the same mistake.

    Confused, he decided to check what did people do in the past.

    In his parent's diaries, he found that their parents gave them almost exclusively lettuce and pumpkin seeds.

     

    Now certain that he found the real, ancient wisdom, he spent the rest of his life preaching that people should eat lettuce and pumpkin seeds and nothing else.

    Since he tried to practice what he preached, that's how he fed his own children.

     

    The next chapter of this story is left to the reader.

     

     

    • 264 posts
    June 11, 2019 5:02 PM PDT

     I love content that doesn't involve combat. I enjoyed the GW2 jumping puzzles, and I greatly enjoyed Vanguard:SOH because of the crafting and diplomacy spheres, that is something I would love to see more of but I don't think Pantheon is the place for that style of game design. Maybe you could have some cool non combat class specific quests for rogues where they sneak and steal avoiding combat to get a guarded treasure, or some sort of mysitical tome reading and recitation quest for wizards, I mean there are certainly possibilities but I hope they avoid doing many of the "gather objects on the ground" type quests I saw in WoW. I'm not really a fan of doing small chore type quests in general. If those are abundant in Pantheon I won't be questing much.