Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Que Time

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    • 1033 posts
    May 18, 2019 8:39 AM PDT

    EppE said:

    AWS has an entire team dedicated to virtualized servers for game developers. It comes down to cost and essentially cost alone. Does any dev want to spin up enough servers to prevent a queue. The scale of these large cloud data centers makes it so shared resources is not an issue.

     

    Renting a server from one of those one off sites, that typically oversaturate to make a buck, is not the same as renting resources with AWS or any other large scale cloud based server provider. 

    There is still a cost and that is pretty much the point. If you have numerous F2P accounts forcing the need for more resources, how are you justifying the cost? This is why you can't have F2P in competition for connections with paying customers.

    • 1033 posts
    May 18, 2019 8:41 AM PDT

    Tigersin said:

    VR wants people to try the game to see if they like it.

    Others want those people to try standing at the back of the line and to watch as we pledges continually cut in front of them. 

     

    Tell me why are we so blind to see that the ones we hurt are you and me?
    -Coolio, 1995, Gamers Paradox

    If a business ignores its paying customers to chase after potential customers, it goes out of business. First and foremost your attention is to your paying customers, then... expanding that base through potential customers otherwise you end up with no paying customers.

    • 370 posts
    May 18, 2019 9:06 AM PDT

    Tanix said:

    Tigersin said:

    VR wants people to try the game to see if they like it.

    Others want those people to try standing at the back of the line and to watch as we pledges continually cut in front of them. 

     

    Tell me why are we so blind to see that the ones we hurt are you and me?
    -Coolio, 1995, Gamers Paradox

    If a business ignores its paying customers to chase after potential customers, it goes out of business. First and foremost your attention is to your paying customers, then... expanding that base through potential customers otherwise you end up with no paying customers.

     

    You're advocating for P2W get out of here with that EA stuff.

    • 1584 posts
    May 18, 2019 9:27 AM PDT

    Tanix said:

    EppE said:

    AWS has an entire team dedicated to virtualized servers for game developers. It comes down to cost and essentially cost alone. Does any dev want to spin up enough servers to prevent a queue. The scale of these large cloud data centers makes it so shared resources is not an issue.

     

    Renting a server from one of those one off sites, that typically oversaturate to make a buck, is not the same as renting resources with AWS or any other large scale cloud based server provider. 

    There is still a cost and that is pretty much the point. If you have numerous F2P accounts forcing the need for more resources, how are you justifying the cost? This is why you can't have F2P in competition for connections with paying customers.

    You can't?  Tell me of one game that specifically prioritizes paying costumers for the free trial ones, it's simple no one does, it's simply not a thing why are people pulling things from mid air and make it sound like we deserve more than someone else just because they want it that way.  Plus like I said it might "cost" more to make more servers but if pantheon is a success the "cost" to make new servers would be trivial at best.  Stop acting like we deserve more than other simply because some people feel they deserve it when we don't, all we should ask for is as game that is great, and try to achieve the point of que times being solved quickly, and have a functional game it honestly that simple.

    • 372 posts
    May 18, 2019 9:29 AM PDT

    Tanix said:

     

    If a business asks all players to wait in the same que, it goes out of business. First and foremost your attention is to your paying customers, then... expanding that base through potential customers otherwise you end up with no paying customers.

    See how silly you look when you get roped back onto the topic?   Read that out loud.  ;)

     

    • 99 posts
    May 18, 2019 10:31 AM PDT

    A fix other than putting them on their own server would be locking them to certain zones and keeping them out of main city's. With shout/trade or what ever the channels are restricted. Once they hit say 10 or what ever they either sub or leave. But this convo derailed lol.


    This post was edited by Wobels at May 18, 2019 10:32 AM PDT
    • 696 posts
    May 18, 2019 12:31 PM PDT

    Wobels said:

    A fix other than putting them on their own server would be locking them to certain zones and keeping them out of main city's. With shout/trade or what ever the channels are restricted. Once they hit say 10 or what ever they either sub or leave. But this convo derailed lol.

    You wouldn't want to take the rights away from these citizens...what..you going to treat them like second class citizens(sarcasm)

    • 1584 posts
    May 18, 2019 2:54 PM PDT

    Tanix said:

    Tigersin said:

    VR wants people to try the game to see if they like it.

    Others want those people to try standing at the back of the line and to watch as we pledges continually cut in front of them. 

     

    Tell me why are we so blind to see that the ones we hurt are you and me?
    -Coolio, 1995, Gamers Paradox

    If a business ignores its paying customers to chase after potential customers, it goes out of business. First and foremost your attention is to your paying customers, then... expanding that base through potential customers otherwise you end up with no paying customers.

    This is possibility one of the worse things I've ever heard of in my life, for one no they shouldn't they should treat every costumer as a customer, potential or not, tell me when someone is advertising shoes do they only send the advertisement to the houses that previously bought there shoes or to all the houses in the nation?  I think the answer in quite obvious there no need to answer.  Also we aren't better than the people who got a free trial into the game so stop acting like we are.

    • 187 posts
    May 18, 2019 4:09 PM PDT

    Wobels said:

    A fix other than putting them on their own server would be locking them to certain zones and keeping them out of main city's. With shout/trade or what ever the channels are restricted. Once they hit say 10 or what ever they either sub or leave. But this convo derailed lol.

     

    I believe that's exactly what they are doing.  Probably no whispers or tells too.  To combat against gold sellers, bots, and other forms of that.

    All threads get derailed now days, incredibly too much bs and nitpicking from certain forum users.  Search some of the older threads and you can see a big difference in the knowledgeable posts. Even if people didn't agree they still had an open mind.  The majority of people who have been here for a long time don't really bother with the forum anymore.


    This post was edited by Kastor at May 18, 2019 4:11 PM PDT
    • 1095 posts
    May 18, 2019 4:16 PM PDT

    Someone give me a sumary of this thread. Thanks

    • 372 posts
    May 18, 2019 4:21 PM PDT

    Aich said:

    Someone give me a sumary of this thread. Thanks



    "I was thinking there should be a hierachy in terms of the queing line. Maybe something along the lines of pledges get priority, accounts with subscriptions, and then trial accounts in terms of the que line. So if you are a pledge and start the game up, then you can basically cut in line behind the next pledge account."  

    "No"

    "Yes"

    "No"

    "Yes"

    "No"

    • 696 posts
    May 18, 2019 6:45 PM PDT

    EppE said:

    Tanix said:

    Tigersin said:

    VR wants people to try the game to see if they like it.

    Others want those people to try standing at the back of the line and to watch as we pledges continually cut in front of them. 

     

    Tell me why are we so blind to see that the ones we hurt are you and me?
    -Coolio, 1995, Gamers Paradox

    If a business ignores its paying customers to chase after potential customers, it goes out of business. First and foremost your attention is to your paying customers, then... expanding that base through potential customers otherwise you end up with no paying customers.

     

    You're advocating for P2W get out of here with that EA stuff.

     

    Yeah I agree EPPE. Pledges and even the subscription model is P2W. Why do subscription models get to level to max and enjoy the game when trial accounts only can get to lvl 10-15 and have w/e other restrictions. I think in order to not make anyone an elitist scum and treat others as second class citizens it shouldn't matter if you pay per month or not. Equal treatment for all I say :P

    • 1399 posts
    May 18, 2019 7:25 PM PDT

    Tigersin said:

    Aich said:

    Someone give me a sumary of this thread. Thanks



    "I was thinking there should be a hierachy in terms of the queing line. Maybe something along the lines of pledges get priority, accounts with subscriptions, and then trial accounts in terms of the que line. So if you are a pledge and start the game up, then you can basically cut in line behind the next pledge account."  

    "No"

    "Yes"

    "No"

    "Yes"

    "No"

    THAT Tiger is one incredibly accurate summary!

    Well done sir. Well done!

    • 370 posts
    May 18, 2019 7:49 PM PDT

    Watemper said:

    EppE said:

    Tanix said:

    Tigersin said:

    VR wants people to try the game to see if they like it.

    Others want those people to try standing at the back of the line and to watch as we pledges continually cut in front of them. 

     

    Tell me why are we so blind to see that the ones we hurt are you and me?
    -Coolio, 1995, Gamers Paradox

    If a business ignores its paying customers to chase after potential customers, it goes out of business. First and foremost your attention is to your paying customers, then... expanding that base through potential customers otherwise you end up with no paying customers.

     

    You're advocating for P2W get out of here with that EA stuff.

     

    Yeah I agree EPPE. Pledges and even the subscription model is P2W. Why do subscription models get to level to max and enjoy the game when trial accounts only can get to lvl 10-15 and have w/e other restrictions. I think in order to not make anyone an elitist scum and treat others as second class citizens it shouldn't matter if you pay per month or not. Equal treatment for all I say :P

     

    Preferential treatment based on how much money you have pledged is P2W. 

    • 696 posts
    May 18, 2019 8:09 PM PDT

    EppE said:

    Watemper said:

    EppE said:

    Tanix said:

    Tigersin said:

    VR wants people to try the game to see if they like it.

    Others want those people to try standing at the back of the line and to watch as we pledges continually cut in front of them. 

     

    Tell me why are we so blind to see that the ones we hurt are you and me?
    -Coolio, 1995, Gamers Paradox

    If a business ignores its paying customers to chase after potential customers, it goes out of business. First and foremost your attention is to your paying customers, then... expanding that base through potential customers otherwise you end up with no paying customers.

     

    You're advocating for P2W get out of here with that EA stuff.

     

    Yeah I agree EPPE. Pledges and even the subscription model is P2W. Why do subscription models get to level to max and enjoy the game when trial accounts only can get to lvl 10-15 and have w/e other restrictions. I think in order to not make anyone an elitist scum and treat others as second class citizens it shouldn't matter if you pay per month or not. Equal treatment for all I say :P

     

    Preferential treatment based on how much money you have pledged is P2W. 

    Okay how about subscriptions then only...still considered pay to win?

    • 372 posts
    May 18, 2019 8:22 PM PDT

    Watemper said:

    Okay how about subscriptions then only...still considered pay to win?

    I recognize a compromise when I see it.  So the new debate here is as follows:

     

    Que Priority = Subs first and Trial accounts after

    This debate assumes that there is a Que

     

    I appreciate compromises so I'll answer this respectfully. I don't like this for two reasons but the most imporant is:

    Someone who just wants to poke their head in the game and see what it's about won't be able to poke their head in the game.

    So do I have a better solution? Perhaps not but I'll suggest something that you hinted at in the OP. VR doesn't allow Trial accounts access to the game for the first 14 days. As you said in post 1, they may not even have Trial accounts at launch. :) This handles two common problems that all mmos face.

    • a que
    • launch issues/bugs

    Q: But what if someone feels they will miss out by waiting 14 days?
    A: They might and let's hope their feelings compel them to purchase.

    <3


    This post was edited by Tigersin at May 18, 2019 8:29 PM PDT
    • 370 posts
    May 18, 2019 11:27 PM PDT

    Watemper said:

    Okay how about subscriptions then only...still considered pay to win?

     

    No I wouldn't consider that pay to win.

     

    I would still consider it bad though. You shouldn't provide potential customers with an inferior quality of service than a paying subscriber. Restricting someone to say 10 levels on a trial account isn't the same thing as having a fast lane and slow in for a login server. In many ways its a trial account is no different than if I didn't buy an expansion that came out. I'd still have full access to content VR has allocated to me.

     

    Yes they don't have access to all content, but the content they do have access to should be handled with the same care as someone who is a sub. You're trying to turn these people into paying subs and by giving them a worst playing experience than a sub doesn't do that. Access to the game, or the content you have unlocked, should be treated equally regardless of what "level" of sub/trial/etc you have.

     

    Honestly this is probably a pointless debate. With the exception of launches and expansions queue times in a MMO are extremely rare.

     


    This post was edited by EppE at May 18, 2019 11:28 PM PDT
    • 59 posts
    May 18, 2019 11:34 PM PDT

    I still haven't got passed the part in this thread where someone quoted a rap song lyric and expected to be taken seriously ;)

    For that matter most of the responses to Tanix's reasoning in this thread have me facepalming to be honest.

    • 1584 posts
    May 19, 2019 4:21 AM PDT
    Look guys I'm sure we're fine I'm sure VR isn't going to treat the population differently just because of pledges or time spent supporting pantheon, they have made a ton of smart moves developing this game, and I'm sure they aren't going to literally shot themselves in the foot by treating people differently in a log in queue, for one like I've said and other others it literally fixes nothing since you will only have to worry about it at launch or new expansions so why would they put in a system when literally 99.9% of the time you would never have to worry about it anyway.
    • 696 posts
    May 19, 2019 5:45 AM PDT

    ^ Exactly, this is just basically for launch, since 10/10 games I have played at the start failed their launches. If you don't want to play at launch or care, then this topic shouldn't concern you. Plus, FTP accounts wouldn't notice at all since they are mostly trying this game on a whim and 80% of them will leave the game probably.

     

    So if VR accounts for subscription population on Day 1 and accomadate 50k FTP spots, then that is at minimum 50,000 trial accounts playing. So I really don't see this being a bad move at all. Being in business, the medical field, long term customers and backers always get priority in a business. That is always how it works. You obviously don't work your business around only them, but you usually prioritize them and then look to expand. It's how every business I have ever seen work lol. You expect new people and work to include them, but you make sure the customers that have been backing (insert company here) get the product they have been waiting for delievered. Plain and simple.

    • 1584 posts
    May 19, 2019 7:50 AM PDT
    I'm saying it's pointless and than you say exactly like we're agreeing and than say the opposite? Look it's not needed, instead of looking for a way for pledges to have higher priority wouldn't it be better to just have a queueing system that can handle a huge Flux of log ins, I mean I get it I guess plenty of games have failed at this, but if you put in your system than the free trials would probably never get into the game or be very limited during certain parts of the day, and that doesn't send a good message either. Like I would rather have a system first come first serve and process through the people in order than have a system priotize logins which in turn would take more time and keep reshuffling itself to figure out which is the highest priority and than have a chance of completely crashing itself because too many log ins were happening during this time and than everyone have to relog back in and probably happen again, I mean this happens on first come first serve log ins what do you think will happen if you actually make it do something other than that?
    • 3852 posts
    May 19, 2019 8:27 AM PDT

    People throw the term free-to-play around in a way that I definitely disagree with.

    To me it means someone playing the game on an ongoing basis without having to buy it or pay a subscription. The connotations are extremely negative - this is precisely what I - and most of us - wish not to have in Pantheon. Not because free players are worse than the rest of us but because that model implies or requires an in-game store to work well financially, and because allowing free play attracts many people that can't play any other type of game because they are too young to have access to means of payment and mommy (or daddy) won't pay for MMOs. It also attracts trolls and griefers that can get their kicks and then leave happy because they never invested anything in the game.

    But free trial people in a purely purchase/subscribe game don't fall into this category, especially if the free trial has time limits. With exceptions (people that use multiple email addresses to play endlessly with character after character without ever paying) they aren't "free-to-play" people they are ....subscribers in waiting. 

    Of course you want your loyal customers happily but if you have any sense you want people seriously thinking of *becoming* customers happy as well.

    • 59 posts
    May 19, 2019 8:57 AM PDT

    dorotea said:

    People throw the term free-to-play around in a way that I definitely disagree with.

    To me it means someone playing the game on an ongoing basis without having to buy it or pay a subscription. The connotations are extremely negative - this is precisely what I - and most of us - wish not to have in Pantheon. Not because free players are worse than the rest of us but because that model implies or requires an in-game store to work well financially, and because allowing free play attracts many people that can't play any other type of game because they are too young to have access to means of payment and mommy (or daddy) won't pay for MMOs. It also attracts trolls and griefers that can get their kicks and then leave happy because they never invested anything in the game.

    But free trial people in a purely purchase/subscribe game don't fall into this category, especially if the free trial has time limits. With exceptions (people that use multiple email addresses to play endlessly with character after character without ever paying) they aren't "free-to-play" people they are ....subscribers in waiting. 

    Of course you want your loyal customers happily but if you have any sense you want people seriously thinking of *becoming* customers happy as well.

    Free trial people may not 100% fall into the F2P catagory, but a large percentage will. These are the type that have no investment in the game.  This group generally comes loaded with folks who don't care about much of anything, least of all personal conduct and reputation. Also, they will impact server loads without contributing to the cost of those servers, and potentially make paying customers who DO contribute wait in line if load is severe enough. If there is to be such a thing as a free trial, I sincerely hope they are on a very limited number of servers, and we have the option to be free from them on another server, one that does not allow free trial accounts at all.


    This post was edited by Darck at May 19, 2019 9:01 AM PDT
    • 1999 posts
    May 19, 2019 6:38 PM PDT

    Darck said:

    If there is to be such a thing as a free trial, I sincerely hope they are on a very limited number of servers, and we have the option to be free from them on another server, one that does not allow free trial accounts at all.

    VR states numerous times that there will be a Free Trial Period. It's very likely to happen.

    They have also stated numerous restrictions on them. These are some, not necessarily all:

    No global chat, no /tell to anyone who doesn't have them on Friends list, limited amount of currency in posession, limited or prohibited access to auction house (if there is one, no decision yet that I've heard).

    The last time I heard the subject talked about - I think in a stream - I heard them entertaining the possibility of servers that have no trial account access. Not guaranteed, but possible. You may well get your wish.


    This post was edited by Jothany at May 19, 2019 6:39 PM PDT
    • 9115 posts
    May 19, 2019 9:56 PM PDT

    Ok, guys, I have cleaned up multiple posts but there is still too many off-topic or just plain incorrect to deal with so this thread will be closed.

    We have made it crystal clear that we will have some type of trial and will implement it with as little impact on the paying subscription base as possible with restrictions in place to avoid free gold selling spam and scams/trolling.

    We have no desire for queues on servers as that will mean we have messed our numbers up and have a performance to resource ratio out of whack (meaning, we want the world to feel as lived in a possible without there being no NPCs/mobs to kill for quests/dungeons/fun etc.) We want a good balance of lived in and performance with mob availability and for that, it means no queues, if we have to use queues it may be if we instance something but that again, will be avoided as best as we can and only implemented if we see issues arise and need to deal with them that way in certain situations outside of main story quests/perception quests.

    There are numerous topics on this, servers and instancing too, that have all been discussed to death so please use the search function and have a read back through those threads to see where the majority of the community stands and official statements mixed into the discussions.

    Please do not create another thread on ques, servers or instances/shards. Thank you :)