Forums » The Enchanter

Mez and DoTs

    • 265 posts
    April 30, 2019 1:59 PM PDT

    So I wanted some input. I mained two classes in EQ, Necromancer and Enchanter. One thing I learned is that DoT classes were almost always a liability in a group because once a DoT was applied you could not mez a mob. I'd prefer this not to happen again. I don't think classes should have half their kit or abilities be useless because of a "what if situation" which will likely just lead to DoT classes not being permitted in groups, or preferred. I know Necro isn't confirmed yet but I have to assume other classes will have DoTs.

    What are your thoughts on abilities similiar to Mez "removing" DoTs from a mob so that a class with DoTs can still cast them but it wouldn't prevent the possibility of CC. Have the Mez still break if a new DoT, or any damage, is taken by the mob.

     

    Thoughts?

    • 1558 posts
    April 30, 2019 2:52 PM PDT

    I don't like the idea of mez beeing disconnected from damage, would it be periodic or not. It's part of the "party experience" to make sure dot classes are properly waiting for a designated target before unloading the curses.

     

    The best I would offer as a compromise, would be a way for the said class to remove/retire it's dots from a target, but not as the enchanter's toolkits, instead by favoring group interraction.

     

    The other answer would be : Short duration dots, nothing more than 30s to avoid "Damn disease cloud ticking for a minute or so".

    • 1587 posts
    April 30, 2019 3:44 PM PDT

    Having played an enchanter from pretty much day 1 in EQ for a few years, I rarely truely had a problem with this.  Yes, some people would do it on occasion and you'd deal with it.  Mainly though, if people didn't understand we explained it to them and they didn't dot mobs that weren't the active target.  I do know a couple of times we had to let people go from the group because they wouldn't pay attention to what they were dotting, but we'd also asked people to leave for using AoEs that break mez, or just outright attacking the wrong target and not paying attention.

    • 594 posts
    May 1, 2019 8:11 AM PDT

    Having other player's DoTs immediately removed by ENC mez or not having mez broken by damage would cause some balancing issues.  It would effectively allow an ENC to duo anything sucseptible to mez with very little consequence (with ranged classes).  Some classes being less desirable for certain groups is inevitable... and the ENC will likely be desired in many groups depending on the role and effeciacy of the Bard and Necro (which I hope are primary CC roles... kind of for the very reason of the ENC being the only class that will be desired in every "serious" full group and could very well lead to the exclusion of other classes depending on the players - which is to the point of the original post).

    @mauvis -I agree that short DoTs would be better.  Your disease cloud comment brought back some great PvP memories... Disease cloud on myself to break mez.

    • 265 posts
    May 1, 2019 8:33 AM PDT

    I'm trying to find a balance here as often times DoT classes, atleast on my server, were discouraged from using DoTs if an Enchanter was in the group. For instance SK's had to avoid DoTs as a means of pulling because the Enchanter couldn't mez the target. I agree it could be unbalanced but I'm looking at some way of balancing between allowing DoT classes to be able to use their spells. For instance a Wizard has all of their damage up front, yes it breaks the Mez, but they are sure to get all of their damage on the target. You can "nuke" a mob and it can still be mez'd later. In general the trade off for a dot wasn't worth it when compared to a class that had all of its damage loaded up front.

     

    I think the ability for a DoT class to remove their DoTs would be a good work around. I'm not sure a simple dispell would work, or maybe it would. Maybe have a "Purge DoT" skill that they could target a mob and hit and it would remove all their dots.

     

    Yes my goal here isn't to make Enchanters more powerful, but to ensure all DPS classes effectively work with them. 

    • 39 posts
    May 2, 2019 8:39 AM PDT

    EASY FIX!!!!

     

    Mezzed creatures are immune to AE Damage

    ANY DoTs/Debuffs applied before the mez will remain on the mezzed creature unaffected and will not break the mez, but has a chance to shorten the mez per DoT tic

     

    ANY damage directly targeted for the mezzed creature will be blocked

    ----Casters will get a notice "Not a valid target" to avoid wasting cast time and resources

    ----This is a setting in the Game's System Settings and can be manually turned off

    ----The Mezzer should turn off their setting allowing them the sole determinant of when a mez should break

     

    • 265 posts
    May 2, 2019 9:43 AM PDT

    Mirthosium said:

    EASY FIX!!!!

     

    Mezzed creatures are immune to AE Damage

    ANY DoTs/Debuffs applied before the mez will remain on the mezzed creature unaffected and will not break the mez, but has a chance to shorten the mez per DoT tic

     

    ANY damage directly targeted for the mezzed creature will be blocked

    ----Casters will get a notice "Not a valid target" to avoid wasting cast time and resources

    ----This is a setting in the Game's System Settings and can be manually turned off

    ----The Mezzer should turn off their setting allowing them the sole determinant of when a mez should break

     

     

    See I don't mind AE's breaking mez at all. That's part of the game IMO. I don't mind people attacking the wrong target breaking mez, part of the game. Well I mean I mind and I'm going to yell at them for doing it but don't mind the mechanic.

    I remember a couple times in EQ we'd be fighting a mob and a higher level mob that couldn't be mez'd would agro/pat to us. I couldn't mez this mob so we had to switch targets. The previous mob we were fighting couldn't be mez'd because of DoTs. After this happened a few times, some even caused wipes, I stopped letting people cast DoTs and eventually just tried not to group with Necro's/SKs as they relied heavily on DoTs. The ironic thing was that while my main was an Enchanter I also played a Necro a ton and loved SK's. I just knew that when it came to grouping a Paladin or Warrior would be taken over a SK because of the issue with DoTs and CC.

    • 1558 posts
    May 2, 2019 1:57 PM PDT

    Mirthosium said:

    EASY FIX!!!!

     

    Mezzed creatures are immune to AE Damage

    ANY DoTs/Debuffs applied before the mez will remain on the mezzed creature unaffected and will not break the mez, but has a chance to shorten the mez per DoT tic

     

    ANY damage directly targeted for the mezzed creature will be blocked

    ----Casters will get a notice "Not a valid target" to avoid wasting cast time and resources

    ----This is a setting in the Game's System Settings and can be manually turned off

    ----The Mezzer should turn off their setting allowing them the sole determinant of when a mez should break

     

     

    That's an easy fix, and also a dumbing down of the game. Not really what I would attend from the game overall, as it's just easing the weight of beeing grouped and playing together, pushing an inch in the direction of "we play alone in a party of 6".

    • 265 posts
    May 2, 2019 3:43 PM PDT

    MauvaisOeil said:

    That's an easy fix, and also a dumbing down of the game. Not really what I would attend from the game overall, as it's just easing the weight of beeing grouped and playing together, pushing an inch in the direction of "we play alone in a party of 6".

     

    Yeah I'm not looking for a dumbed down solution. I know you could say that knowing how/when to apply your DoTs takes skill, and it does. Removing DoTs breaking Mez makes the game easier, which arguably it does. This is designing a game mechanic around how your community will use it. If DoTs already applied on a mob break Mez, and CC is crucial, DoT classes are going to be moved to the bottom of the DPS food chain.

     

    I remember multiple times in groups we would skip the SK who was next in line to join because I did not want a DoT class with us. I also know I wasn't the only enchanter who did this. They simply made our job harder at no risk to themselves. If a DoT broke mez the mob came for the Enchanter not the SK/Necro, normally. The community policed its self by blacklisting entire classes from the "best" grouping spots. Yeah if you were tucked into a corner in Karnors you could find a group, or in Dreadlands. If we were in Sebilis there was no chance you were getting a group because CC was too important.

     

    This isn't about elitism and the solution shouldn't be "well just tell them not to cast the spell" because you have to look at how the community will respond. If two classes are LFG, and everything else being equal, if one requires more coordination because of DoTs most groups will pick the class that doesn't have DoTs. Everything is about risk management in a game with harsh death penalties. 

    • 2353 posts
    May 2, 2019 4:54 PM PDT

    No idea what this is about, never had any issues with it when it came to any half decent group. Don't DoT until you have a primary target and ultimately communicate with your group if you are going to try anything fancy. I don't think any special considerations should be made to make mez easier or to have it override poor player decisions. 

    • 39 posts
    May 2, 2019 5:18 PM PDT

    I don't think it is "Dumbing down" things.  Druids can root and DoT.  Having the Enchanter being able to Mez and DoT isn't a dumbing down of the game.  The game could be that Enchanters are not stunting the mind of the enemy, but placing them in a protective stasis, which is keeping others from damaging them and breaking the stasis.  

    • 265 posts
    May 2, 2019 9:03 PM PDT

    Iksar said:

    No idea what this is about, never had any issues with it when it came to any half decent group. Don't DoT until you have a primary target and ultimately communicate with your group if you are going to try anything fancy. I don't think any special considerations should be made to make mez easier or to have it override poor player decisions. 

     

    I had over 450 days played as an Enchanter and was in a high level raiding guild; I only say that so people understand this isn't coming from a "I don't know what I'm doing" perspective. I'm in no way trying to make it an easier class. SK's were the least popular tank among Enchanters because of their DoTs. When you have to change targets because of an add mid fight DoTs block all CC. I was in groups that wiped in Sebilis because a SK used a DoT to increase threat, as he should, then we had adds that could not be mezed. When a mob can't be mez'd you have to switch targets, it becomes the new primary. When groups start wiping because of an ability the community will create norms around not using that ability, or that class all together. 


    This post was edited by EppE at May 2, 2019 9:07 PM PDT
    • 1558 posts
    May 3, 2019 1:48 AM PDT

    Mirthosium said:

    I don't think it is "Dumbing down" things.  Druids can root and DoT.  Having the Enchanter being able to Mez and DoT isn't a dumbing down of the game.  The game could be that Enchanters are not stunting the mind of the enemy, but placing them in a protective stasis, which is keeping others from damaging them and breaking the stasis.  

     

    The idea is simply : everyone is responsible of their dots, debuffs, it's not the enchanter's responsibility,  and thus it's not his job to freeze/stase/whatever. He has to play with his team and not be the asset that can deal with any trouble.

    On the CC scale you have :

    Snares, the mob is able to walk and attack, and require the target to walk/run to get distance.

    Roots, the mob cannot move but still attack, requiring the targe to retain out of melee range, usually a break on damage probability.

    Stuns, the mob cannot move or attack, offering a short term breath due to a short duration.

    Mezzes, the mob cannot move or attack, offering a long term breath, usually a high break on damage probability.

     

    If you start mixing benefits withouth detriments, like making mez damage or dot proof, you're not making it a balanced CC, it just gets overpowered and can even be used in fights to break the pace of swings. A stasis spell should have accordingly tuned detriment, like a long cooldown, a high cost, a long casting time, a high threat modifier, and not just a key you can push to get done with adds and not care at all about your team synergy.

    Of course, a rogue attacking brainlessly a target during a swich/missed pull/train will break mez and cause havoc. A lasting dot on a target will cause trouble. But to me, the solution isn't to cut the interaction between players. When a player can just mez your target, pause dots and remove it completely from battle you also get the inversed benefit of allowing trolls to stase mobs, which isn't an idea solution either. A team should simply learn to work together and if players don't want to learn, and want to play for themselves only, they should simply not remain in that team.

    • 594 posts
    May 3, 2019 8:20 AM PDT

    EppE said:

    I had over 450 days played as an Enchanter and was in a high level raiding guild; I only say that so people understand this isn't coming from a "I don't know what I'm doing" perspective. I'm in no way trying to make it an easier class. SK's were the least popular tank among Enchanters because of their DoTs. When you have to change targets because of an add mid fight DoTs block all CC. I was in groups that wiped in Sebilis because a SK used a DoT to increase threat, as he should, then we had adds that could not be mezed. When a mob can't be mez'd you have to switch targets, it becomes the new primary. When groups start wiping because of an ability the community will create norms around not using that ability, or that class all together. 

    Well said EppE.  Some people are finding it difficult to believe that the community will absolutely ostracize certain classes, regardless of the "good intentions" of the devs if certain conditions aren't met.  "Continually" breaking an Enchanter's CC (accidental or not) will be a quick way to get yourself blacklisted for future groups, and if it is done due to a mechanic of your class, you can expect that class to be less likely to be invited to "serious" groups that require CC.  A good way to avoid to class exclusion from this particular topic would be to have the Necro be a CC primary role (utilizing parylyzing fears, bone cages, heart attacks. off tanking with high threat-low duration immune ghosts, ect) which would not break from small amounts of damage (I say "small amount of damage" because if someone hits your hard enough, anger will overcome fear) but have shorter durations than the ENC mez.  From what we've seen so far, the only class to "rely" on DoT for their primary source of damage is the SHM so far, which shouldn't be an issue in a group situation since their primary role is healer/support.  If the necro primary role isn't DPS, this will be a non-issue.  Having "some" of a Bard's CC be stun based could also help.   

    • 265 posts
    May 3, 2019 10:47 AM PDT

    Darch said:

    EppE said:

    I had over 450 days played as an Enchanter and was in a high level raiding guild; I only say that so people understand this isn't coming from a "I don't know what I'm doing" perspective. I'm in no way trying to make it an easier class. SK's were the least popular tank among Enchanters because of their DoTs. When you have to change targets because of an add mid fight DoTs block all CC. I was in groups that wiped in Sebilis because a SK used a DoT to increase threat, as he should, then we had adds that could not be mezed. When a mob can't be mez'd you have to switch targets, it becomes the new primary. When groups start wiping because of an ability the community will create norms around not using that ability, or that class all together. 

    Well said EppE.  Some people are finding it difficult to believe that the community will absolutely ostracize certain classes, regardless of the "good intentions" of the devs if certain conditions aren't met.  "Continually" breaking an Enchanter's CC (accidental or not) will be a quick way to get yourself blacklisted for future groups, and if it is done due to a mechanic of your class, you can expect that class to be less likely to be invited to "serious" groups that require CC.  A good way to avoid to class exclusion from this particular topic would be to have the Necro be a CC primary role (utilizing parylyzing fears, bone cages, heart attacks. off tanking with high threat-low duration immune ghosts, ect) which would not break from small amounts of damage (I say "small amount of damage" because if someone hits your hard enough, anger will overcome fear) but have shorter durations than the ENC mez.  From what we've seen so far, the only class to "rely" on DoT for their primary source of damage is the SHM so far, which shouldn't be an issue in a group situation since their primary role is healer/support.  If the necro primary role isn't DPS, this will be a non-issue.  Having "some" of a Bard's CC be stun based could also help.   

     

    I really believe we need atleast one more CC, but I would love to see the Necro added as a third. I'm assuming Bard will be the second CC at this point. I'm looking for ways to reduce the amount of classes being seen as less desriable. Necro and SK's could solo extremely well which was good because they weren't most peoples top picks in groups. DoTs have a ton of other issues with them being extremely mana effecient but unless you get the full tick it's much less DPS than a nuke with all the damage loaded up front.

     

    This isn't at all about making either skill, class, or ability easier. It's about increasing synergy. 

     

    • 182 posts
    May 11, 2019 6:08 AM PDT

    In this circumstance, if a target is DoTed or had a mez broken by a DoT, I typically just charmed it. Charm was the CC method with the rare occurence in which a player DoTed a target that needed to be CCed. The other option is group competency. If they can properly switch targets and only if that original target wasn't DoTed, you can then switch targets and lock the previous target.

    Those are typically the two most used options.

    • 265 posts
    May 13, 2019 10:10 AM PDT

    Janus said:

    In this circumstance, if a target is DoTed or had a mez broken by a DoT, I typically just charmed it. Charm was the CC method with the rare occurence in which a player DoTed a target that needed to be CCed. The other option is group competency. If they can properly switch targets and only if that original target wasn't DoTed, you can then switch targets and lock the previous target.

    Those are typically the two most used options.

     

    Yes Charm was an option. This may be more than just a "DoT's suck with mez" and come down to that the classes that used DoTs weren't good enough to warrant the extra effort of working around DoTs. SK's were good tanks, but in most cases a Paladin was better. Necro's weren't bad DPS... but in most cases every other DPS class was better in a group than them. This meant that I, as an Enchanter, had no upside to "dealing" with these issues that a DoT class brought to the group. They weren't good enough to jusitfy a work around.

     

    If DoT classes are even slightly behind any other class on DPS, possibly even if on par, they aren't going to be desired in some cases because the extra effort of working around the DoT for an Enchanter isn't worth the benefit of having that class.

     

    This all goes back to if they are too much of a PITA, which in EQ was a huge case, we'll just stop inviting them. 

    • 658 posts
    May 17, 2019 5:42 PM PDT
    Worst comes to worst the dot class needs to own it and take the Mob away from the group to have it rooted by their own means or wait till the chanter roots it. I'd hate too see them have any artificial blocks to breaking Mez, otherwise mez becomes way to OP
    • 265 posts
    May 18, 2019 11:57 PM PDT

    Hokanu said: Worst comes to worst the dot class needs to own it and take the Mob away from the group to have it rooted by their own means or wait till the chanter roots it. I'd hate too see them have any artificial blocks to breaking Mez, otherwise mez becomes way to OP

     

    No I totally get that. A DoT class SHOULD handle their own add if it's DoT'd. What I saying is based purely on experience as an Enchanter main during EQ from launch through GoD. I avoided having DoT classes in my group because they weren't worth the trouble. DoT classes worked fine in hodge podge groups, in fact many times its what made those work. 

     

    How do to balance not making Mez or DoTs too OP by over synergizing but at the same time make it so DoTs aren't so much of a PITA that no one wants a DoT class in their group?

     

    The only solution I can come up with is either Mez pauses all DoTs/Debuffs or you give the class that applied the DoT some means for clearing it off the mob. I'd prefer the latter actually. Give the DoT class an ability that say allows them to cast a spell consuming the DoT and it does 20% of the remaning damage on the mob. (% can vary just a number) Ensuring that most of the potential damage is lost reduces the chance of it being exploited while at the same time giving them additional utility. 

    • 7 posts
    May 19, 2019 11:25 AM PDT

    Maining an Enchanter myself I never had an issue with this with groups of people you play with. I rarely pugged back in EQ and there would be the occasional accident here or there, but this should have neve really been an issue and adds to the challenge that made EQ. I think it would make it too easy if MEZ was to ignore dmg/dot. I think it needs to be communicated prior to pulls etc, what is the main target. Adds some strategic to the game that we miss in todays mmo's. 

    • 12 posts
    June 2, 2019 4:49 PM PDT

    As a main enchanter on live. I think changing it is robbing the enchanter of learning another's toolkit somewhat and robbing that person of learning how to play their class.

    You shouldn't be engaging (DoTing) without a tank on the mob. 

    Just seeing 3 mobs pulled and throwing up 3 dots and then going back to texting on your phone or watching TV etc... shouldn't be permisable. You need to know wtf you're doing, assist the main tank, engage with things that aren't mezzed when you're with an ENC. if you're just rooting or offtanking then dot everything to your heart's content. 

    Know your audience and your DoT's will land true. 

     

     

    That's my opinion though. In my carrier I typically only saw this rarely and typically on accident. It forced us to adapt and sometimes wipe. The risk in the game meant something and I think vigilant players are rewarded with more dmg over time on a target when they pick and choose their opportunities wisely. 

    • 265 posts
    June 2, 2019 11:04 PM PDT

    Atarius said:

    As a main enchanter on live. I think changing it is robbing the enchanter of learning another's toolkit somewhat and robbing that person of learning how to play their class.

    You shouldn't be engaging (DoTing) without a tank on the mob. 

    Just seeing 3 mobs pulled and throwing up 3 dots and then going back to texting on your phone or watching TV etc... shouldn't be permisable. You need to know wtf you're doing, assist the main tank, engage with things that aren't mezzed when you're with an ENC. if you're just rooting or offtanking then dot everything to your heart's content. 

    Know your audience and your DoT's will land true. 

     

     

    That's my opinion though. In my carrier I typically only saw this rarely and typically on accident. It forced us to adapt and sometimes wipe. The risk in the game meant something and I think vigilant players are rewarded with more dmg over time on a target when they pick and choose their opportunities wisely. 

     

    Couple things. I'm not talking about a DoT class just tossing dots up on every mob that is pulled. 

     

    Scenario A. 3 Mobs pulled. Tank picks one, begins tanking. Everyone begings attacking/doting that mob. Due to the uptime required on DoTs the DoT class needs to get them up early in a fight. Enchanter begings CC. Mob 1 CC. Mob 2, can't be CC for whatever reason. Maybe to high for the Enchanter but the tank didn't know because it con'd Blue to the tank. Maybe its immune. Numerous reasons. The group now needs to change targets to the mob that was pulled that can't be mez'd. The DoT class didn't do anything wrong, but now the orignal primary target has DoTs on it and it can no longer be mez'd. 

     

    Scenario B. X amount of mobs pulled. Doesn't matter. All mobs but the primary are CC. Dots, etc, on the primary target. Named mob spawns because we're sitting in its camp to ensure no one takes it. Same issue as Scenario A. You have to change targets because it can't be mez'd and the original target has DoTs rolling on it.

     

    I totally get that player skill shouldn't be removed from these situations. What I'm speaking about is something that occured on my server. Classes that had DoTs were told not to use them with an Enchanter in their group. I played a Necro and an Enchanter so I experienced this on both sides.

     

    The risk of DoTs preventing CC and the communities goal to mitigate risk is what drove this. 

     

    I'm thinking a balanced solution would be to let the DoT class "detonate" their dots for a % of the remaining damage they would have caused. This helps clear them off a CC'd mob and it also allows them to burst some damage on a mob if they know the mob will die before the dots expire.

    • 1587 posts
    June 3, 2019 10:55 AM PDT

    EppE said:

    Scenario A. 3 Mobs pulled. Tank picks one, begins tanking. Everyone begings attacking/doting that mob. Due to the uptime required on DoTs the DoT class needs to get them up early in a fight. Enchanter begings CC. Mob 1 CC. Mob 2, can't be CC for whatever reason. Maybe to high for the Enchanter but the tank didn't know because it con'd Blue to the tank. Maybe its immune. Numerous reasons. The group now needs to change targets to the mob that was pulled that can't be mez'd. The DoT class didn't do anything wrong, but now the orignal primary target has DoTs on it and it can no longer be mez'd. 

     

    Scenario B. X amount of mobs pulled. Doesn't matter. All mobs but the primary are CC. Dots, etc, on the primary target. Named mob spawns because we're sitting in its camp to ensure no one takes it. Same issue as Scenario A. You have to change targets because it can't be mez'd and the original target has DoTs rolling on it.

    I'm guessing in both scenarios you'd just do what everyone without an enchanter in their group does.

    • 658 posts
    June 3, 2019 8:23 PM PDT

    EppE said:

    I'm thinking a balanced solution would be to let the DoT class "detonate" their dots for a % of the remaining damage they would have caused. This helps clear them off a CC'd mob and it also allows them to burst some damage on a mob if they know the mob will die before the dots expire.

    Thats a pretty decent concept, I'd want the damage of that detonation to be meager in comparison to the damage of the DoT running its course. If comparatively detonationg a DoT is a very mana heavy way to cause damage then people will actively try to learn to secure DoT's on the right target at the right time and not looking to fall back on being able to just use a detonation to dps.

    At the same time i like the fact that not being able to remove that DoT puts the group into an immediate tactical change.. It tests the communication and cohesion of the group which (i believe)  is a very important part of this games success.

     

    • 265 posts
    June 4, 2019 7:00 AM PDT

    Hokanu said:

    EppE said:

    I'm thinking a balanced solution would be to let the DoT class "detonate" their dots for a % of the remaining damage they would have caused. This helps clear them off a CC'd mob and it also allows them to burst some damage on a mob if they know the mob will die before the dots expire.

    Thats a pretty decent concept, I'd want the damage of that detonation to be meager in comparison to the damage of the DoT running its course. If comparatively detonationg a DoT is a very mana heavy way to cause damage then people will actively try to learn to secure DoT's on the right target at the right time and not looking to fall back on being able to just use a detonation to dps.

    At the same time i like the fact that not being able to remove that DoT puts the group into an immediate tactical change.. It tests the communication and cohesion of the group which (i believe)  is a very important part of this games success.

     

     

    Over all that was my thoughts too. You don't want the damage to be so much that it ends up being used to cancel then reapply DoTs for an increaseed amount of damage. A situation where it ticking down to 5 seconds and then detonating is a gain of exp but if you detonate at 6 seconds or 4 seconds its a loss seems like a problematic design.

     

    You could do somemthing like 50% of the remaining damage and have the ability on a 2 minute cool down.