Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Community Debate - Keeping it purely immersive

    • 107 posts
    April 22, 2019 7:10 AM PDT

    A hard pass on flying mounts for me. Just look up anything about how it hurt WoW. The ability to just skip everything by flying over and touching down wherever you need is bad. I do like the idea of having ways to skip content in the form of making a bridge, using a grappling hook, or breaking through set barriers depending on what classes are in your group. Although these sorts of features often are glitchy and create a lot of problems with people glitching through walls and such anyway.

    As for ground mounts, I don't think i want them. I just think it gets too easy to explore with them. I like the idea that I took a long while to get to this area so im going to bind as close as i can and stay awhile. Less speed means I can stick around to figure things out. I think maybe having set caravan trains that leave every so often wouldn't be bad. But just having a mount that you summon and zoom off with isn't very engaging to me.

    • 372 posts
    April 22, 2019 8:47 AM PDT

    zendrel said:

    A hard pass on flying mounts for me. Just look up anything about how it hurt WoW. The ability to just skip everything by flying over and touching down wherever you need is bad. I do like the idea of having ways to skip content in the form of making a bridge, using a grappling hook, or breaking through set barriers depending on what classes are in your group. Although these sorts of features often are glitchy and create a lot of problems with people glitching through walls and such anyway.

    As for ground mounts, I don't think i want them. I just think it gets too easy to explore with them. I like the idea that I took a long while to get to this area so im going to bind as close as i can and stay awhile. Less speed means I can stick around to figure things out. I think maybe having set caravan trains that leave every so often wouldn't be bad. But just having a mount that you summon and zoom off with isn't very engaging to me.



    I feel the same as above.  One other thing I thought of today is that ground mounts are largely used for show. The prestige of having earned a particularly difficult to get mount is something that everyone I know feels good about. If you completed weeks worth of exploring and dungeoneering to earn a mount, you're going to enjoy showing it off because it's a mount that, perhaps, is rare. So they are actually more than 'just for fast travel.'  Though I don't know how this impacts immersion. It may enhance it or detract from it.


    This post was edited by Tigersin at April 22, 2019 8:50 AM PDT
    • 1399 posts
    April 22, 2019 8:56 AM PDT

    Tigersin said:

    zendrel said:

    A hard pass on flying mounts for me. Just look up anything about how it hurt WoW. The ability to just skip everything by flying over and touching down wherever you need is bad. I do like the idea of having ways to skip content in the form of making a bridge, using a grappling hook, or breaking through set barriers depending on what classes are in your group. Although these sorts of features often are glitchy and create a lot of problems with people glitching through walls and such anyway.

    As for ground mounts, I don't think i want them. I just think it gets too easy to explore with them. I like the idea that I took a long while to get to this area so im going to bind as close as i can and stay awhile. Less speed means I can stick around to figure things out. I think maybe having set caravan trains that leave every so often wouldn't be bad. But just having a mount that you summon and zoom off with isn't very engaging to me.



    I feel the same as above.  One other thing I thought of today is that ground mounts are largely used for show. The prestige of having earned a particularly difficult to get mount is something that everyone I know feels good about. If you completed weeks worth of exploring and dungeoneering to earn a mount, you're going to enjoy showing it off because it's a mount that, perhaps, is rare. So they are actually more than 'just for fast travel.'  Though I don't know how this impacts immersion. It may enhance it or detract from it.

    This brings up a new ground mount problem that really irritates me. These mounts people are so proud of that they want to show off crowding banks, merchants, mailboxes, ect. Commonly idiots griefing. But often times just inattention to ones surroundings, or showing off his new annoying mount.

    • 123 posts
    April 22, 2019 9:25 AM PDT

    I'm against flying mounts, it is content killer by avoiding fights too heavily.

    I'm ok with ground mounts if it is implemented in a way it does not make combat avoidance too easy.

     


    This post was edited by Khendall at April 22, 2019 9:25 AM PDT
    • 1033 posts
    April 22, 2019 9:40 AM PDT

    Consider this..

    A mount is nothing more than a graphical representation of a spell.

    So, when you allow EVERYONE a mount, you are essentially giving them a spell that has some advantage. So, in this case, because it is a natural progression, I will assume a speed increase.

     

    That means, you are allowing EVERYONE in the game to improve their default run speed by a certain percent.

    Is this a good idea? Should EVERYONE have it? Or.. maybe you are thinking it should be VERY difficult to get, so "few" have it? Is that it?

    These are important qiuestions because if you make it where getting a mount is easy where everyone can get it easily (ie put in some cost and people can save up and buy it, this is easy) then what you are doing is saying EVERYONE should have this speed increase.

    Do you think it healthy for EVERYONE to have a default speed increase?

    Now I am not "against" the concept of an item that allows a player to increase their speed. I am a bit leery of it to be honest, I mean, I am not even sure the J-boots were a good design decision (not sure, I see the benefit, but I question its end concept as eventually over time everyone could get them easily much later on in the game).

    I just think it is VERY important that we keep classes who have such skills in an advantage over those who do not. If we do not, we end up with PoP where ports become invalidated, or WoW where mount speeds and type allowed players invalidate a lot of the class based skills.

    If they allow mounts, it has to be like a J-boots style quest or it is basically a concept of telling everyone that they all should run "this percent faster", but you have to go through a process to get it (ie WoW like pay for training and mount). Once it is done, everyone runs at that speed and so... well... that becomes the new minimum. To me, thats not a good design.

    Anyway these are my thoughts, concerns, etc... and honestly I don't have all the answers, but those who ignore the importance of such issues aren't concerned about game play, they just want another bonus and we have mainstream games designed around that, so we see where that takes us.

    • 13 posts
    April 23, 2019 10:40 PM PDT

    I like the high level only (no drop) ground mounts but make them have upkeep cost no vanishin/summon you will have to pay to stable it and feed it Or even rent one. And no super speed! Basically more as status symbols than anything. In real life you could travel farther and fast over long distances on foot than on a horse. 

    No player controlled flying mounts ever! Could use NPC controlled flying mounts to replace some boats. 

    No combat mounts! Only pet classes should have fighting pets.

    Pack animal sound cool but has some problems with it. Still need to feed and care for it, can’t take them inside a lot of places so are you just going to leave it fully loaded just outside of a indoor zone when you go in? If so can others pickpocket it or outright steel it? Shouldn’t a beast of burden slow you down? If you can just summon/unsummon it why not just use a bag of holding? 

    • 65 posts
    April 23, 2019 10:53 PM PDT

    I think flying mounts are one of the coolest things to be introduced to a MMORPG.

    I also think they are a terrible idea for a game that is trying to keep the player immersed in its world. I have actually realized over time and many MMOs that less "quick" travel is better. You need some, but its a slippery slope. Less quick travel forces the community to work together in order to travel, wait for a player to arrive, etc.

    Flying mounts are like microwaves. They are super convenient but you are guaranteed to lose quality in the overall end product. I would attribute flying mounts to more theme park type convenience and instant gratification type MMO's.

    I would say no in the context of what you seem to be trying to do with Pantheon. I would also say even ground mounts should be, and stay, something special and not become easy to obtain.

    • 668 posts
    April 24, 2019 12:41 AM PDT

    I am torn between no mounts at all and or just land mounts.  I think it would be cool to have horizontal leveling that improved run speed like AAs in EQ but not where it is OP.  If it were land mounts, make them very unique / challenging to get and not to the point where they break land speed records.  You could also have caravan type hubs throughout the world were players could stop buy and grab a temp speed buff to assist with travel.  A good option if you can’t find a player to assist, they would just have to make there way there.

    Flying mounts I simply never liked...


    This post was edited by Pyye at April 24, 2019 12:41 AM PDT
    • 1033 posts
    April 24, 2019 4:46 AM PDT

    Ravirn said:

    I like the high level only (no drop) ground mounts but make them have upkeep cost no vanishin/summon you will have to pay to stable it and feed it Or even rent one. And no super speed! Basically more as status symbols than anything. In real life you could travel farther and fast over long distances on foot than on a horse. 

    No player controlled flying mounts ever! Could use NPC controlled flying mounts to replace some boats. 

    No combat mounts! Only pet classes should have fighting pets.

    Pack animal sound cool but has some problems with it. Still need to feed and care for it, can’t take them inside a lot of places so are you just going to leave it fully loaded just outside of a indoor zone when you go in? If so can others pickpocket it or outright steel it? Shouldn’t a beast of burden slow you down? If you can just summon/unsummon it why not just use a bag of holding? 

    Cost systems get quickly outpaced by the economies and become meaningless.

    As for travel, in fact you can travel further and faster on a horse, it is why we used horses for travel in the past. Not only that, but horse theft was considered a hanging offense specifically because a horse was considered the difference between life and death in many situations (ie without a horse you would die in many areas).

     

    • 79 posts
    April 24, 2019 6:12 AM PDT

    I am not a big fan of flying mounts, not to say I don't use them in games that have them.  But it does sort of shrink the world when they are used.  If you have flying mounts that take you from one continent to another that would be ok.

    Ground mounts I can live with or without.  I would like to see a more challenging approach to them.  If you could make them more of a pet (non-combat) than a graphical run buff, it could add more to the game.  Make them expensive, make them have upkeep (feeding, watering, even brushing), let them have hit points and can be killed (maybe allow them to be resurrected).  Make it dangerous to use all the time, you have to find a safe place to park them.  It always bothers me when mounts just magically appear.  That way you actually have to work at it instead of it being a run buff.

    • 3016 posts
    April 24, 2019 10:59 AM PDT

    IF you need flying mounts..make it end game eligible only at level cap..by that time everyone should know the game pretty well, have traversed the world on foot, ground mount, boats and so on. 

    Make them non tradeable as well.   Each flying mount EARNED..and a special achievement or status for the person that worked for it.

      I realize that as time goes on...say 50 is the cap...that will no longer be as special,  but still..level 50 should be a milestone in any case,  as with expacs,  the levels will eventually go higher...just a thought.

     

    Cana


    This post was edited by CanadinaXegony at April 24, 2019 11:01 AM PDT
    • 627 posts
    April 24, 2019 11:18 AM PDT
    Why not just make flying mounts where they can't fly for more that 20s after that they will levitate downwards and start regain stamina when they ate back on the ground again. Best of both worlds, limited ways to skip content, while you get all the coolness and benefits from the flying mounts..
    • 334 posts
    April 24, 2019 2:18 PM PDT

    As I posted elsewhere, but worth outlining again.

    Mounts should only be considered under specific circumstances:

    1) There are far away areas that need to be routinely traveled to, and the game has had an expansion or two

    2) Mounts are expensive

    3) Mounts are realistic for the world and not flashy/unique in any way

    4) Stay away from scaling like what happens in most MMOs, i.e. a Gnome's horse/pony would be a full-size horse/pony, they might need a special saddle, or maybe an Ogre won't be able to ride a traditional horse

    5) Race appropriate mounts (e.g., maybe the Dwarves ride rams instead of horses)

    6) Mounts do not diminish the benefits of classes that provide speed buffs

    7) Mounts are not usuable everywhere and are primarily just used to travel between zones with a mount stable placed in strategic locations, i.e. you can't just summon your mount wherever

    8) Mounts are left outside of the cities, you put it in a stable before going inside a city and are not allowed to use a mount within the city

    9) No flying mounts, ever

    Those are the things I would require to consider the possibility of mounts being implemented into the game.

    • 34 posts
    April 24, 2019 6:08 PM PDT

    No mounts~

     

    I think it would help to maintain the feeling of a large world, keep porters/buffers as relevant as possible, and increase the chance of buffing a noob as you run by.

    • 1399 posts
    April 24, 2019 8:43 PM PDT

    My first choice is no mounts at all.

    Special ability for some classes is run speed buffs, mounts would likely, or be expected to replace the need for those essentially killing some of the usefulness of those classes. (Not worh the damage it would do to those classes)

    Flying mounts, same as above but with the added problem of giving the players a safe area to jump over what's supposed to be a dangerous world. This safe zone I think should be taken care of before flying mounts are ever considered or introduced into the game. Say later expansions add level 60+ flying MOBs, lightning Bolts, Poison Clouds etc. WHEN the sky's are more dangerous than the ground, then maybe flying mounts.


    This post was edited by Zorkon at April 24, 2019 8:44 PM PDT
    • 96 posts
    May 14, 2019 1:42 PM PDT

    Ground Mounts - I would be interested in a system where you could obtain various permits to RENT mounts from towns. Throughout the game you would have ways to acquire more advanced permits to rent better mounts. The way i envision this working would be... when you rent the mount you can ride it until you get to your destination, or a set amount of time, then you will release it, let's say these mounts are trained to return to their stable if the rider leaves them out in the wilderness. At that point, you will be mountless and you cannot just take out a whistle and have your mount re-appear.  I know it is very convenient to be able to call a mount from anywhere but it does take a lot of the meaning out of being out in the wilderness when you can just summon your mount.

    I'd also like to see some sort of fear system implemented in these mounts, similiar to how handled in Witcher 3, where if you find yourself around hostile enemies the mount can spook and kick you off. This plays again into the whole idea about obtaining better permits to rent better mounts. If you dont have lets say "Grade 10" permit, you cant rent the mount that can resist fear from the enemies up in some distant valley. Therefore, you will have to go through that valley on foot. Some other ways i think these permits could add to the game...

    permit that allows you to rent a mount that has more riding time before the mount is released.

    permit that allows you to rent a mount that allows you to cross an raging river that cannot be crossed safely without.

    permit that allows you to rent a mount that is capable of climbing certain cliffs that cannot be climbed otherwise

    permit that allws you to rent a mount that holds a lot of gear so you can transfer some gear/items between cities.

     

    flying mounts - during my time playing FFXIV i enjoyed the flying mounts briefly when first released but after a few weeks I wished they were never implemented. Too easy to get from point A to B. it starts to feel like a chore to travel because there is no sense of danger etc.

    • 2756 posts
    May 14, 2019 4:54 PM PDT

    I think I'd prefer no mounts - not ones that can be directed freely, anyway.

    • 21 posts
    May 14, 2019 6:50 PM PDT

    No mounts. Just give the shamans SoW again.

    • 63 posts
    May 14, 2019 9:22 PM PDT

    No mounts

    • 58 posts
    May 15, 2019 12:51 AM PDT

    BamBam said: I'd like to see stamina, % movement speed and carry weight on each type of mounts. Some might run at sprint speed for awhile. Some might carry a lot and be slower, some might be [able] to fly but will use stamina fast and has to regain it on the ground.

    I'm not for flying mounts, but this should be the way all mounts are done.  Stamina mechanic: This x 1000

    • 2756 posts
    May 15, 2019 1:55 AM PDT

    Oh and as for pets: just those that are for pet classes.  Having pets following adventurers around is ridiculous.

    Unless the owner has to go back to the pet store and buy a new one after every combat, because they would die in every one...  In fact, even then, no thanks.  It's silly.  May as well allow neon pink armour and other cosmetic horrors.


    This post was edited by disposalist at May 15, 2019 5:42 PM PDT
    • 48 posts
    May 15, 2019 2:39 AM PDT

    I actually never used mounts in EQ or EQ2 (or Vanguard I guess, though my playtime on that was way way less). I just don't like how they operate compared to being non mounted. It did help that I played as Rangers and Druids in all three. Oddly enough, this usually applies to open world console games too, like in Horizon Zero Dawn I never used mounts, though in Days Gone I did use the motorcycle and eventually grew to like it

    I would consider using flying mounts or mounts if they are really fast though (begrudingly). Though I seriouisly hope there would be no buffs outside run speed for mounts, I don't want to feel that I am forced to use them or shortchange my party members with my performance.

     

    • 48 posts
    May 15, 2019 6:33 AM PDT

    Lore is just lore and lore can be expanded at any time, any point and in which ever direction the Developer Team would like it to go.
    To say there is no basis in the Lore for x/y/z is to ignore the possibility for expanding the Lore and the Death of a game. No new lore? No new content.

    While I am not here to say yay/nay to any type of mount, consider this.

    People do have lives. If they find that they have to spend too much time to get from point A to B in order to play whatever content they have set out to do which eats up the majority (or not) of the time they can be online, they will stop playing said game and find something else.
    If one wishes to be a successful game, one has to accept the fact that you appeal to the masses and not the hardcore players.
    That does NOT mean that it should be easy to get a mount, a teleport or similar. It simply means that the method to reduce travel time should be in-game.
    If you have to spend several hours to travel from A to B so you can sign up for a Dungeon "queue" and then wait X amount of time for Y member to leave said dungeon party. This game is not likely to succeed.. At all. As I said. People do have lives. Especially the people that might have come from early EQ/Vanguard scene as a fair few of us today.. Are older folks with families, girl/boyfriends etc.. I'm one of those that can't throw several hours of my day at a game anymore.

    I would not mind seeing Flying mounts. I would mind seeing them in certain places in a city, hamlet, village etc, but if it gives access to otherwise inaccessible territory, you have created content for these creatures, probably kept it within "lore", whatever that is.. a good story writer knows how to avoid pitfalls which prohibits certain aspects in a game. If they come with a time limit in the air, I am fine with that, so long as I can continue on ground. If they come with an ardous quest line and requirements I'm even better with it. Part of the fun about having mounts is actually having to earn them.
    I think most of you forget how difficult it was to get a World of Warcraft mount. It took weeks to months to get one and finally presenting a 100% mount was an achievement. It was even more of an achievement unlocking the fastest flying mounts.
    It took me half a year getting enough gold in-between raiding to get the fastest flying unlocked (not to mention the reputation, quest lines and similar I had to complete as well). It took me about the same to get something similar in Vanguard: SoH.

    Why? Let's not pretend that EQ and Vanguard (+ similar) did not have ridiculous movement speed buffs that let you sprint through a zone so fast it caused a train of monsters trying to catch up to you which in turn tended to leash said train on to unsuspecting bystanders whom probably had the thought "what the heck just happened"..?!
    If you can skip the "content", if one can call travelling as such, in such a way what's so horrible about letting people get from A to B by flying? Except the innocent bystander won't have a train leashed upon him, obviously.

    • 2 posts
    May 16, 2019 6:14 AM PDT

    I could do without mounts of any kind, but ground mounts are reasonable if realistically restricted.

    In the real world horses don't gallop constantly and can only do it for a limited time, then need to rest.  Limiting the movement speed in this way is realistic.  Perhaps, have different classes of horse-type mounts that would have greater stamina and cost more but none would allow unlimited speed enhancement without rest periods.

    In this way, player-cast speed boost spells would retain value in that they wouldn't be subject to stamina restrictions.  They would still be preferable.  But player-owned mounts could still have value in cross-country travel.

    I would favor upkeep being necessary if you have a mount too.  They have to be maintained in real life, and why not in an MMO too?

    I think flying mounts are destructive to the type of game Pantheon in aiming to be, after experiencing what they do to the player experience in EQ2 and WoW.

    • 187 posts
    May 16, 2019 10:52 AM PDT

    In the beginning, no mounts. None. Well except maybe temporary underwater mounts, if your faction is high enough.