Forums » Pantheon Classes

Combat Resources Review

    • 264 posts
    April 3, 2019 5:40 PM PDT

    First of all, I would like to start by saying that I love what VR and Joppa have been doing so far! I am really excited about the game, and I can't wait for the next stream and the next newsletter.

    I am going to review and share my opinion of all Combat Resources, I feel that it is an important part of the gameplay and the design of a Classe.

     

    Dire Lord

    Resource: Essence, generated by % of damage dealt and damage taken + abilities

    Opinion: Good. We've already seen and played this type of resource in other games. Balancing the generation and spending of Essence should separate players from different skills level. 

    I would have liked to see a resource with some kind of trade off. Perhaps Dire Lord Combat Resource could have been their own life and soul, and Dire Lord would need to make choices and hurt themselves in order to use their strongest abilities, for example, reducing their max hp pool by X% for X sec to gain Attack Speed or Life Leech.

     

    Ranger:

    Resource: Momentum, generated by % of damage dealt + few abilities. Grant attack speed.

    Opinion: Good. Difficult to balance due to attack speed gained. 

     

    Paladin:

    Resource: Wrath/Reckoning point, generated by damage taken, slain enemies, and abilities

    Opinion: Average. Two resources to manage could be cumbersome, especially if the Paladin is not the playing as Main Tank. Wrath would be generated slower, and there is a risk that playing Paladin would not feel as good.

     

    Wizard:

    Resource: Spell weaving, Focus, generated by abilities. Provide damage boosts, reduce Hate, and Mana generation

    Opinion: Great. Gameplay will certainly be interesting and great wizards will play differently than average wizards. I really like the idea of spell weaving and I would push it even more. How cool would it be to have multiple wizards casting an amazing spell together? A task that would be impossible alone. Each wizard would either cast a piece of the spell and it would need to be done in the right order, perhaps there will be a weaving wheel to help Wizard work together to unlock amazing boost to their spells.

     

    Monk:

    Resource: Chakra, generated by damage dealt and abilities

    Opinion: Average. Little bit disappointed of the lack of innovation here. Chakra is basically limiting access to the best abilities to the monk. The risk here would be to have a very basic and optimal rotation that would rarely change, fast encounter would not let the Monk use his gates abilities often. It feels like Dire Lord Essence, perhaps longer cycle due to the six gates.

     

    Cleric:

    Resource: Celestial Power, generated by % of effective healing + few abilities. Decrease cost of abilities.

    Opinion: Good. I like the uniqueness of that resource. It is not super innovative, but I like it. Cleric will become stronger the longer they fight, similar to Shaman. Perhaps Cleric players will need to make choices on investing to generate Celestial Power earlier in the fight. Perhaps spells will be costlier, with longer CD, but there will be a return on investment later in the fight due to how Celestial Power works (decrease cost of abilities). 

     

    Rogue:

    Resource: Endurance

    Opinion: Average. Looks like endurance is generated by time only? Maybe gear too? VR did not communicate abilities that generate endurance. Rogue will need to manage Mana as well Endurance itself is pretty boring, we've seen it and played it already. However, I feel that managing many things like 'Cover', and 'Sneak' would make the gameplay fun. I wish it would be more. I wish some abilities would depends on positioning just like backstab, perhaps others abilities would be only usable on the flank of the target or only if the target is victim of a special effect like dazed, slowed, knockdown, stunned, bleeding, charmed etc.. Rogue after all are very opportunistic fighter, it would be cool that Rogue get special abilities that would unlock and combo with those effects.

     

    Warrior:

    Resource: Battle Points, generated by abilities. Resilience, unclear at the moment how this resource will work. It says "Not a resource that Warriors spend; rather, they work to keep it as high as possible during combat, or to build it up again if it breaks down".

    Opinion: Good. I would have called Battle Points something else: Leadership or Tactical expertise. It looks like this resource is generated by the right abilities and that is cool. Resilience is interesting as well. I prefer that combinaison than Paladin: Wrath+Reckoning Points, because it seems more challenging and more fun to play. Instead of having another Combat Ressource that unlock stronger abilities and make the character stronger the longer the fight goes (Chakra), Warriors will have to generate Battle Points, spent them wisely, while generating Resilience when needed. How does Resilience go down? I do not know. Perhaps when the warrior get critical hits? I do not think it would be % of damage taken.

     

    Enchanter:

    Resource: Mana

    Opinion: No specific resource, just regular Mana. Perhaps VR consider that managing crowd control on multiple targets is already enough to deal with, on top of dealing damage and generate Mana for other group members. I am fine with that.

     

    Summoner:

    Resource: Arcamental Control, Mana

    Opinion: I am not sure if Summoner will have to manage a resource, I don't know how it would work. Usually a Summoner would use the Pet they need for a particular situation. If Solo, they would use Titan, if there is a Tank in the group, they would use Fury or Zephyr, and support with Udine when needed. It looks like there are 4 attributes: Energy, Solidity, Power, Quickness. I do not know if Summoner would generate those attributes or be limited somehow. 

     

    Shaman:

    Resource: Vision, generated by healing done. Faster spell casting

    Opinion: Good. Just like Cleric, Shamans get a unique boost from his resource, and Shaman will get stronger during longer fights.

     

    Druid:

    Resource: Mana 

    Opinion: No specific resource. Perhaps VR considered the fox was enough to manage? I am a little confused. Why would all the other healers have a special resource, but Druid do not? Why would both Cleric and Shaman get special boosts from their resources and Druid feel the same from the start to the end of a fight?!

    Why not having a resource linked to the Nature? location, time of the day, relationship with Hirode and the Fox? What about having a Resource called Nature attunement? and give Druids synergies with other classes? Ranger and Druid share their love for Nature, and wild animals, plants... Shaman and Druid share their connection to the elements. Perhaps it could be similar to the heroic system in Everquest 2, once a Ranger perform an ability of a certain type, Druid would be able to combo with it. If the Druid is grouped with both a Ranger and a Shaman, it would let Druids provide different temporary boons to the group.

     

    Like you can see, many Combat Resources depends on the damage taken, damage dealt, or healing done. Are you happy about this? What would you have like to see? 

     

    PS: Here are some open questions that I will be happy to have conversations about with you guys.

     

    Does each class need a Resource?

    Does each class need a different and specific Resource?

    What are the challenges of designing Characters Class resources?

    Why are Character Class Resources important?

    Could Resources be shared?

     

    Edited: Added Resilience. Thanks MauvaisOeil!


    This post was edited by Ithaca at April 4, 2019 12:06 PM PDT
    • 307 posts
    April 3, 2019 9:31 PM PDT

    Difficult to discuss something that has not completely been rolled out yet. A lot is still to be tested of course. So personally, I won't be taking it apart just yet.

    If not all classes requires a resource, than just that fact might be the novel twist in the class design. As long as they keep it challenging and engaging for all classes and all with pro's and con's, I wouldn't mind at all. Equality across all races and classes is not something VR was aiming for I think, rather the opposite. 

    That said, with enough brainstorming one might invent a resource for each class, but then again it might feel "weaker" or less challenging/different then rolling out the class without the resource.

    Try working the other way around, and look at the classes that have resources so that they wouldn't have that resource... would you have boring classes? or overpowering classes?

    Some resources might be required to put some restricition to the specific class especially down the line, when every ability or skill gets pumped. ...

    I wouldn't want to see shared resources, you carry too much and could be contributing to a bot-system/design. Each character needs to be played, if you don't you'll have concequences.

    • 1584 posts
    April 3, 2019 11:12 PM PDT

    You have forgotten resilience, the final layer of a warrior armor that has to be maintained during fights (natural decay) and from fight to fight to keep defensive capabilities at most. I know this ressource doesn't seem to be actively consumed, but maybe the gauge either decays over time, or it's consumed by ennemies attacks (and thus, the more you take the faster your resilience would drop).

     

     

     

    That said, I don't think every class needs a special ressource and honnestly they feel like they were forced to give one to everyone, I'd have been fine with melee using stamina only, as an example.

    Additional ressources tied with a mana bar are fine, in the sense it means you primarily have to manage mana for long term sustainabilty, then your secondary ressource for efficiency, and I feel like classes using spells while having no mana (paladin as an example) are in the weird spot of using the same school of abilities with less drawbacks. In that design I would have prefered Paladins to have mana but actively replenish it through battle instead of using them with abstract ressources.  As you can see I'm a lot into shared ressources, in the end, but used, generated, replenished differently.

     

    On the share of ressources, having played FFXIV I feel like a "common ressource" like the Limit break is, doesn't bring anything interesting. 90% of the time you will use it for moar damage and either it scale on the player (not ffxiv design) and the most geared should use it, or it scale on the group's items (FFXIV style ~ weapon based) and it's the lower geared that use it because he will loose less DPS doing it.

    The 10% remaining are either recovering from a quasi wipe (in non challenging content, because in challenging content if you burn the LB on heal/rezzes you can't beat the boss in time), or using it for a pre scripted sequence where you need that tank LB for damage reduction.

    Common bars usually ends up only used for the same thing, because there is no way to make it balanced with various groups and classes.

    • 264 posts
    April 4, 2019 12:15 AM PDT

    MauvaisOeil said:

    You have forgotten resilience, the final layer of a warrior armor that has to be maintained during fights (natural decay) and from fight to fight to keep defensive capabilities at most. I know this ressource doesn't seem to be actively consumed, but maybe the gauge either decays over time, or it's consumed by ennemies attacks (and thus, the more you take the faster your resilience would drop).

     

    Thanks, I will read again about Resilience.

     

    MauvaisOeil said:

    That said, I don't think every class needs a special ressource and honnestly they feel like they were forced to give one to everyone, 

    I agree, it does feels like many Combat Ressources are 'the same' but with a twist and a difference name... I've been thinking a lot the last few days and it is actually a very complex task. Much harder than designing abilities because Combat Ressources need to be thought through lvl 1 to lvl 50, it needs to be working while soloing, in group, and in raids, etc... And of course it needs to be balanced and somewhat fun to manage. Not an easy talk.

    Maybe Joppa understood Combat Ressources were not a quick win and he preferred to work on abilities and other things.

    • 1065 posts
    April 11, 2019 11:47 AM PDT

    Half the classes generate their particular resource while in combat. (not the mana consumers)
    Half the classes generate their particular resource while out of combat. (the mana consumers)
    Or, if you prefer:
    The longer the fight, half the classes gain power potential, and are not limited by time.(not the mana consumers)
    The longer the fight, half the classes lose power potential, and are limited by time. (the mana consumers)
    Then, for context:
    So far in every video from 2016 to 2019, all mana and health regeneration, out of combat, is percentage based, and does not exceed 90-120 seconds from half to full.
    Given the above, if it were to remain true to launch, the most effective way to play is to get in and out of combat as quickly as possible, and have all mana consumers in your group, utilizing percentage based out of combat resource recovery as often and as quickly as possible.
    Or
    Given the above, if it were to remain true to launch, the most effective way to play is to stay in combat permanently, and have all non-mana consumers in your group, ignoring percentage based out of combat resource recovery.

    Unfortunately, so far, I believe the healer role requires a mana consumer (except for Monk, and they only partially fill the role with self-heals), so... yeah.  It seems that for consuming quick TTK content while levelling, mana consumers will logically fair better, while for longer TTK fights, the non-mana consumers will fair better.
    Leader to.. if you're fighting anything green-blue-white, it's likely having a group entirely of mana consumers will be the path to glory, while if you're fighting white-yellow-reds, the non-mana-consumers will likely be the path to glory, except for the healing problem.

    At least that's my take on it with the available information. :)

    • 264 posts
    April 11, 2019 1:59 PM PDT

    vjek said:

    Half the classes generate their particular resource while in combat. (not the mana consumers)
    Half the classes generate their particular resource while out of combat. (the mana consumers)

    [...] if you're fighting anything green-blue-white, it's likely having a group entirely of mana consumers will be the path to glory, while if you're fighting white-yellow-reds, the non-mana-consumers will likely be the path to glory, except for the healing problem.

    This is it. I believe this is how Joppa is thinking about balancing Pantheon group content. Most rewarding and challenging encounters are going to need a group of players with both Mana users and non-mana consumers in order to succeed. Of course some players could try their luck with an unsual group set up, but it will certainly be challenging in many ways.

    • 2379 posts
    April 11, 2019 2:56 PM PDT

    vjek said:

    Half the classes generate their particular resource while in combat. (not the mana consumers)
    Half the classes generate their particular resource while out of combat. (the mana consumers)

    [...] if you're fighting anything green-blue-white, it's likely having a group entirely of mana consumers will be the path to glory, while if you're fighting white-yellow-reds, the non-mana-consumers will likely be the path to glory, except for the healing problem.

    It's a bit more nuanced than that. Wizard regenerate copious mana in combat by weaving arcane spells, summoner are far less reliant on mana for their damage (pets) but still have some means to regenerate lost mana, and then of course enchanter has a handful of mana sustain tricks.

    As far as I can tell the only classes truly lacking endurance to maintain throughput in a long engagement are healers, likely by design as they are the true battery/gauge of a group. 

    • 1065 posts
    April 12, 2019 7:27 AM PDT

    So far, as demonstrated, the mana regeneration of a wizard in combat does not compare to the mana regen of a wizard out of combat.  Out of combat is vastly superior in every way.
    They've also recently said (in the Feb or March roundtable audio) those in-combat resource recovery methods will be a one-off for wizards, and not an overarching design goal for all classes.  I suspect if anyone ever figures out how to recover even one third of their mana, per cast, it will be nerfed into the ground.
    The rest of the mana consumers have zero means to recover mana in any meaningful way, and so will be able to cast until OOM, then must sit and rely on mana regen gear, in combat, if such a thing is going to exist.
    Shamans are the exception, although I suspect their class feature ability (regening mana at the same rate, in or out of combat) will also be removed before launch, due to it's overpowered nature and percentage based recovery.  They may end up being more powerful than Clerics for long fights, due to this one thing, although it could be balanced based on spell cost, but that's problematic if there are any enchantments, spells, or abilities that affect mana cast.

    Really, though, it likely won't have any serious impact except for T5 and T6 Environment fights, which will likely place players in-combat for the duration.  Up to that point, from the videos so far, TTK is so quick that mana consumers are very powerful with TTK being 45-60 seconds, without any meaningful gear equipped.

    Finally, it remains unconfirmed that percentage based out-of-combat recovery is a launch day design goal.  If that ever gets confirmed, it will change all this theorycrafting drastically.  It will also invalidate all the testing that has occurred up to that point, if/when they switch back to fixed value out-of-combat recovery, so hopefully they're not that short sighted.

    • 264 posts
    April 12, 2019 12:12 PM PDT

    vjek said:

    The rest of the mana consumers have zero means to recover mana in any meaningful way [...]

    Shamans are the exception, although I suspect their class feature ability (regening mana at the same rate, in or out of combat) will also be removed before launch, due to it's overpowered nature and percentage based recovery.  

     

    I agree with you. I think it will be part of the Enchanter and Bard toolkit to have meaningful Mana regeneration abilities.

    Great wizard players will use wisely their arcane spells to regen a little of mana during the fight, instead of blasting every single fire spells they have, get aggro and die, or survive and be oom for a while. I've seen those casters in EQ2, nobody wanted to play with them. Arcane spells will help in order to have a smooth experience as a wizard but also for the group (less down time, etc). Same for good Summoner players that will be using Mana boomerang when available.  

    Ancient Focus Shaman passive will be changed. It does not make sense.

    • 26 posts
    April 17, 2019 1:07 PM PDT
    I'm hoping everyone will have at least a couple basic powers that will always be up. Resource management is fun when done right, but standing around with all powers grayed out isn't.
    • 18 posts
    April 25, 2019 6:10 PM PDT

    As far as the Druid goes and your suggestion, I think VR did a nice job of keeping it simple. If they decided to change the Druid resource to what you suggested might add too many variables to the mix and make it too complicated for what they seemed to be going for.


    This post was edited by Kravim1 at April 25, 2019 6:13 PM PDT
    • 264 posts
    April 25, 2019 7:14 PM PDT

    Kravim1 said:

    As far as the Druid goes and your suggestion, I think VR did a nice job of keeping it simple. If they decided to change the Druid resource to what you suggested might add too many variables to the mix and make it too complicated for what they seemed to be going for.


    They probably made the right decision. A part of me wanted more innovation and uniqueness with the ressources, but I trust Joppa and the team to make good decisions. They have more experience than me and most likely are able to foresee if something would not be able to design or scale well, balance, etc.

    • 99 posts
    April 27, 2019 8:41 AM PDT

    There's something to be said for having some straightforward and easy to use classes in the game.  Not everyone who might be interested in playing has the awareness to track multiple resources in their head while staying out of the bad stuff and avoiding aggroing the neighbors...

    • 71 posts
    May 7, 2019 5:30 AM PDT
    For Druid and mana only.

    When questioned about this before, Joppa hinted at storms and the relationship between Druids and the weather being more important than what was known so far.