This problem stems more from players than the developers. Every class is equipped with some utility, and that utility is often ignored because 'X class does it better/best'.
This is more a problem of players always min/maxing and putting the focus on maximum efficiency in every aspect of the game - combat, travel, crafting, etc. Players will often ignore utility for efficiency, but this usually takes a bit of time, as the min/maxers need time to figure out the system.
However, I never grouped with people like that - where they would force the group to sit around and do nothing anyways, whilst we waited for the 'perfect' match up to complete the group. I never had that problem in early EQ, but did often have that problem in later WoW (you're Holy SPec??? Why aren't you Disc? type comments, etc.). I think the problem is a result of min/maxing being such a prominent focus, and all the easy button P2W stuff that's so ubiquitous throughout the genre.
I feel that if a lot of the easy button play is absent, it'll take some time before folks start to figure out the 'perfect' group. I'm sure I could fill my alone time with exploration, harvesting, travel, or crafting whilst waiting for a group. I've never experienced something like what the OP has.
Oh, and P1999 EQ is not 'Old school'.
@Percipiens
I don't think many people have an issue with classes being able to be productive when they aren't able to find a group, in fact I would have an issue if they couldn't.
What I don't want is for Tanks, Healers, and CC to be morphed into a quasi DPS playstyle in order to entice more players to play those classes. Typically when games do that DPS don't switch and the people who originally liked those classes find less enjoyment out of them, making no one happy.
Percipiens said:I don't think the OP is arguing for classes to be something that they're not, or arguing that the classes that make up the support roles should be able to solo. If I'm reading correctly, the OP wants to be able to actually do something if/when groups aren't available, and that's fair. There's nothing worse than being a 'needed' class that isn't needed and you spend all day/night LFG with no results. I'm really hoping there will be plenty horizontal progression options to help with that. And, lest ye scoff and look down your noses, druids, necros and wizards kiting came out of this in EQ. Three classes that figured out that it was slower than grouping, but it was doable and they could make gains. Based on what I've seen as far as class abilities go, there will be alternate offerings for each class. So, if a group is single pulling, an enchanter will still have something to do. How VR handles giving classes more viability and not having them pigeonholed into a single role with a certain gearset and playstyle will say a lot about the design and have a huge impact on how many of each class we have on the servers.
EQ allowed for this, but there are limitations, choices, pros/cons to any given situation. In EQ, doing things wasn't simply relegated to just killing. Because of the travel system being long and arduous, because the world was fraught with danger, just "exploring" was "something to do" and so a lot of players would seek out new zones, explore to see where they might find a new dungeon, a new exp area, etc...
This is part of doing things when you don't have time to play a normal session. Now certainly, you may be able to solo, but this again will depend on what class you choose at the start. If you want to be able to solo more often, it would be best to pick a class that provides stronger tools to achieve this. Is it a guarantee that you will be able to solo? No, but... if you are clever and attentive, you may find ways to solo (ie emergent game play).
Problem is, if you are a player who looks up online all the hints, maps, locations, gear drops, etc... then you will have killed the things you could be doing while you are solo. This is why many of us don't want maps in the game, radars, etc... we don't want hand holding, and various other easy "convenience" mechanics and the reason is because figuring out things and exploring is part of the "solo play" one did in a game like EQ.
So there wil be plenty to do in a game like Pantheon, providing the OP makes some balanced choices (picks a class that fits their play needs) and does not cheat the game by looking up all the map locations, information, etc... It really is all up to them.
EppE said:That's fair. A Healer is more fun to someone who doesn't like healing when they are doing alternate roles. Healing is stressful and a bad healer can often cause a group to wipe. During raids DPS only have to worry about the boss and their location in the raid as it pertains to movement. They can forgoe their DPS rotation at any moment in order to stay alive by moving out of the fire. A healer does not get that luxury. A healer has to track the boss, everyone's health, their location in the room, and often times the location of the DPS and Tank to anticipate incoming damage. A healer can't cancel a spell sometimes in order to move out of the fire or the tank will die... the healer has to anticpate movment. Please don't make me try to squeeze in DPS too.
As a main healer in every single MMO I play, I say pretty confidently that giving healer classes abilities beyond heals does not ruin the role. I agree with Nephele - a person who plays a healer should not have to sit around trying to find a group or else be unable to do anything except maybe work on crafting. Nephele is not suggesting that healers should be required to maintain a dps rotation while healing.
Naunet said:EppE said:That's fair. A Healer is more fun to someone who doesn't like healing when they are doing alternate roles. Healing is stressful and a bad healer can often cause a group to wipe. During raids DPS only have to worry about the boss and their location in the raid as it pertains to movement. They can forgoe their DPS rotation at any moment in order to stay alive by moving out of the fire. A healer does not get that luxury. A healer has to track the boss, everyone's health, their location in the room, and often times the location of the DPS and Tank to anticipate incoming damage. A healer can't cancel a spell sometimes in order to move out of the fire or the tank will die... the healer has to anticpate movment. Please don't make me try to squeeze in DPS too.As a main healer in every single MMO I play, I say pretty confidently that giving healer classes abilities beyond heals does not ruin the role. I agree with Nephele - a person who plays a healer should not have to sit around trying to find a group or else be unable to do anything except maybe work on crafting. Nephele is not suggesting that healers should be required to maintain a dps rotation while healing.
Well, DPS is a role now, like it or not (I don't like it personally), which means there is now a precarious balance to be maintained or classes of a non-DPS focus could invalidate a DPS class. Role based design means classes have to be kept in their hole and if they deviate, step outside of it, they must be beaten back into it. This is why I hate specifically designating a class as a "role". Rather I liked how AD&D and original EQ did it, by stating the abilities of a class and let the players individually decide what they are capable of.
Tanix said:Naunet said:EppE said:That's fair. A Healer is more fun to someone who doesn't like healing when they are doing alternate roles. Healing is stressful and a bad healer can often cause a group to wipe. During raids DPS only have to worry about the boss and their location in the raid as it pertains to movement. They can forgoe their DPS rotation at any moment in order to stay alive by moving out of the fire. A healer does not get that luxury. A healer has to track the boss, everyone's health, their location in the room, and often times the location of the DPS and Tank to anticipate incoming damage. A healer can't cancel a spell sometimes in order to move out of the fire or the tank will die... the healer has to anticpate movment. Please don't make me try to squeeze in DPS too.As a main healer in every single MMO I play, I say pretty confidently that giving healer classes abilities beyond heals does not ruin the role. I agree with Nephele - a person who plays a healer should not have to sit around trying to find a group or else be unable to do anything except maybe work on crafting. Nephele is not suggesting that healers should be required to maintain a dps rotation while healing.
Well, DPS is a role now, like it or not (I don't like it personally), which means there is now a precarious balance to be maintained or classes of a non-DPS focus could invalidate a DPS class. Role based design means classes have to be kept in their hole and if they deviate, step outside of it, they must be beaten back into it. This is why I hate specifically designating a class as a "role". Rather I liked how AD&D and original EQ did it, by stating the abilities of a class and let the players individually decide what they are capable of.
OK your putting great ideas to use here, D&D is a book, filled with pages. I too am a D&D lover, now try to encorp that into a real game?
This is 2019, and you have old school players and new players. This is not D&D online, which i dont think they even got it right either, or half the other clones to D&D but games like EQ is not D&D and you have to see its 21 years strong..
Ppl like being able to do there own thing, we cant take what would be great vrs what we know to work in MMORPGs Its impossible, the first person that sees OK i can shoot an arrow, ill tag it and keep shooting arrows for 1 dps, just is boring man. Ok now you click and move here and cast illusion to scare the monster away for 20 damage.
Like not going to work, and i love D&D man.
Naunet said:As a main healer in every single MMO I play, I say pretty confidently that giving healer classes abilities beyond heals does not ruin the role. I agree with Nephele - a person who plays a healer should not have to sit around trying to find a group or else be unable to do anything except maybe work on crafting. Nephele is not suggesting that healers should be required to maintain a dps rotation while healing.
I've pretty much mained a healer since I left EQ since no form of CC existed in other MMOs. Giving healers damage abilities isn't the issue and I honestly can't think of a MMO where they didn't have them. What I'm saying is that healers should not be reworked in an attempt to attract people who normally prefer DPS classes. It ruins the class.
This is a group based game with no "designed" solo content. I highly doubt most classes, especially clerics, are going to be able to solo effectively. The amount of damage and utility you would need to give them to be viable solo would drastically alter how they play in a group.
I like whack a mole, as a healer I have no desire to cast a damage spell. As an enchanter I liked CC. Most our DD's drew too much agro so I never bothered keeping them memorized. I prefered locking down mobs. A class can be engaging without causing direct damage to the mob.
@Naunet That depends. For example, I don’t believe a cleric/healer with melee dps makes sense. And actually, that will already exist (with strong limitations) via the Paladin. Perhaps a Paladin would be a good fit for you?
Syrif said:@Naunet That depends. For example, I don’t believe a cleric/healer with melee dps makes sense. And actually, that will already exist (with strong limitations) via the Paladin. Perhaps a Paladin would be a good fit for you?
The solution is to pick another class if one wants to experience different roles. You can't have your cake and eat it too, there are pros/cons to class selection, gives/takes and people need to accept them, otherwise we end up with class hemogenization where every class can tank, heal, dps, cc, underwater bb stack and basket weave just so people don't have to deal with the consequences of choices. I mean... why can't I be a healer and also do DPS and maybe tank? Is that too much to ask?
It depends on the game, but in a game like this.. yes... way too much to ask.
EppE said:Naunet said:As a main healer in every single MMO I play, I say pretty confidently that giving healer classes abilities beyond heals does not ruin the role. I agree with Nephele - a person who plays a healer should not have to sit around trying to find a group or else be unable to do anything except maybe work on crafting. Nephele is not suggesting that healers should be required to maintain a dps rotation while healing.
I've pretty much mained a healer since I left EQ since no form of CC existed in other MMOs. Giving healers damage abilities isn't the issue and I honestly can't think of a MMO where they didn't have them. What I'm saying is that healers should not be reworked in an attempt to attract people who normally prefer DPS classes. It ruins the class.
I think I agree with you in principle. But, I don't believe that's what anyone has been suggesting here. No one wants to turn primary healers into "DPS that can heal". I realize in some games, that's happened, but those games aren't Pantheon :)
What we are suggesting though is that healers (and by extension, CC classes and tanks as well), should have enough additional abilities that they can do something productive and engaging when they aren't called on to do their primary role. Examples would be if they're unable to get into a group for some reason, or if they're in a group, but there's another person of the same role present in the group.
LIke I said before, there's a danger in making role definitions too loose, but there's also a danger in making role definitions too tight. The best answer will always be in the middle somewhere. The goal should be to provide a distinct and engaging experience to players in every class, whether they find themselves in a traditional group, a nonstandard group, or even solo. No one should have to change to a different character or class from what they prefer just to have fun in the time they have to play.
For now, the cleric already has DPS spells and even at least two melee skill/spell intended to dish out damage, and justify that damn plate and shield wearing !
The discuss isn't over of course, but thinking it's the wrong game for a melee hitting cleric with damage abilities as secondaries is a bit invalidated by the class page.
I am cool with a melee cleric. I don't know how any of the classes will feel until I get to play them. So design isn't the problem, but it doesn't mean it should be effective at all. I remember being in a group in Mistmoore with what I thought was a Paladin tank, but was a cleric instead. The cleric had the stuns, roots, and flash of light. They also had a shield and mace. However, if they tried that in the hole or something they would of gotten squashed real quick.
I think the problem is when classes want to do something another class can. That is the problem. This is what happened in WoW. ESO, and others and now all the classes are dumb downed. It's like a warrior asking to have heals like a paladin for more sustain...or a paladin asking for dots and a pet like a shadowknight. That is when it becomes a problem.
MauvaisOeil said:For now, the cleric already has DPS spells and even at least two melee skill/spell intended to dish out damage, and justify that damn plate and shield wearing !
The discuss isn't over of course, but thinking it's the wrong game for a melee hitting cleric with damage abilities as secondaries is a bit invalidated by the class page.
Well, a cleric with healing abilties can not compete, it can't even come close or even remotely near that of a DPS class or it invalidates a DPS class. So based upon the concept of "roles", the cleric as a healer class has to primarily heal and expect this to be its primary useful focuis (as per role classification). If they step outside of this, if they compete even remotely with another class function, they will be imbalanced, infrigining on the other class and disrupting the class role balance.
This is by the way why I despise the "tit for tat" concept of "ROLE" design for a class, but this is the direction VR took, so... if the cleric steps ANYWHERE near that of a tank or a DPS, they MUST be nerfed for they are in violation of their directive which is to be a healer defensive buffing class. Should they be able to damage? Sure... all classes can do damage, but it can not even remotely compare to that of a DPS class. Can they tank? Maybe, to some degree, but they are not a tank class and if they are become able to tank, they should be nerfed... why? Because they are NOT a tank class, as per the "ROLE" classification they are given.
I don't make the rules, I only point to them. /shrug
Watemper said:@Nephele
No not middle of the road....maybe like 90% healer 10% other. Middle of the road is homongenizing the classes.
Yep, exactly. Cleric in this game would not bode well as middle of the road. Cleric is *the* healer, meaning the master of heals/rezzes. There will already be ‘hybrid’ classes such as the Paladin that will be distinct in their own way.
@Nephele I think you are looking a bit too far into it - imo.
In all honesty classes like "Enchanter and Cleric" are the most rewarding due to the rarity of them. You look at World of Warcraft every class can do everything and solo 100% successfully, which is what has caused all of this nonsense we call current MMOs. You take Vanilla WoW, something everyone suggests was the best, those healers had a very difficult time soloing, but as time went on they butchered it into the beast it is now.
Now as far as Enchanter, Cleric, (etc); like I mentioned before the rarity of them is the biggest reward, it feels really good to always be in high demand, it feels really good to know that you are unique, rare, needed, etc. If I wanted to go play a boring DPS char I would, but I don't want to, I don't mind waiting around in town until I find a group etc. You look at "Pathfinder and D&D", how many players solo anything in those games?
The way clerics and enchanters become "FUN", is by being soo in demand that at every level there will always be a group looking for one. That's my class fantasy.
Tanix said:MauvaisOeil said:For now, the cleric already has DPS spells and even at least two melee skill/spell intended to dish out damage, and justify that damn plate and shield wearing !
The discuss isn't over of course, but thinking it's the wrong game for a melee hitting cleric with damage abilities as secondaries is a bit invalidated by the class page.
Well, a cleric with healing abilties can not compete, it can't even come close or even remotely near that of a DPS class or it invalidates a DPS class. So based upon the concept of "roles", the cleric as a healer class has to primarily heal and expect this to be its primary useful focuis (as per role classification). If they step outside of this, if they compete even remotely with another class function, they will be imbalanced, infrigining on the other class and disrupting the class role balance.
This is by the way why I despise the "tit for tat" concept of "ROLE" design for a class, but this is the direction VR took, so... if the cleric steps ANYWHERE near that of a tank or a DPS, they MUST be nerfed for they are in violation of their directive which is to be a healer defensive buffing class. Should they be able to damage? Sure... all classes can do damage, but it can not even remotely compare to that of a DPS class. Can they tank? Maybe, to some degree, but they are not a tank class and if they are become able to tank, they should be nerfed... why? Because they are NOT a tank class, as per the "ROLE" classification they are given.
I don't make the rules, I only point to them. /shrug
I have played healers back in old school EQ and also vanilla/BC WoW. They were in no danger of "invalidating" DPS classes by any measure, trust me. And just to clarify, I mean healing specced. Just because I had some DPS abilities in my spellbook, does not mean I was using them in group situations. Because I actually did try to do that from time to time, but if the content your group is doing is challenging, and you try to pop in DPS abilities too much, you're wasting your mana when you could be healing. In most situations it was more efficient use of mana to let the DPSers do the DPS and save my mana for heals.
Now that's not to say you couldn't pop in a dps spell here and there, but it was mostly "just because I could" in those situations, and probably did not make much difference in the fight. As long as healers understand that they are primarily healers, I don't mind them having some damage abilities. But just because they have them, does not automatically "invalidate" DPS roles. As long as the developers adjust the numbers, classes can maintain their identity without invalidating other classes, while still providing some flexibility.
Now, as for solo vs group play in Pantheon. I think the developers should spend a lot of time fine-tuning class mechanics to allow for some level of solo play. I am not advocating for all classes to be able to rush to max level easily, and without ever grouping, no. What I am suggesting is giving a healer, for example, a combination of spells and abilities that, when you play them well enough, you can maybe solo one mob at a time. Between a couple damage spells, healing yourself, maybe some other utility spells, etc, you can successfully kill things by yourself, if you learn the mechanics well enough, and probably having to regen between each fight. It should be difficult, but doable. This gives you something to do while you are LFG, but you are still motivated to find a group because groups can down mobs much faster than solo play.
As for group play, classic classes should excel at their role over hybrid classes. A cleric should be the best healer, but a druid or shaman can still provide some healing, but probably won't be able to keep the group alive in hard content like a cleric can.
Warriors and other warrior types should be the best tanks, but some other classes can offtank if needed, but probably can't main tank bosses.
In summary, I think it is possible to maintain class identity while still giving each class some play style flexibility, so that you can at least enjoy the game to some degree even if you don't have a group at the moment. But classes should still excel at their primary role over a different class!
To me it is quite simple.
Each class should be better at its assigned role than any other class that does *not* have the same assigned role. No non-healer class should be able to heal even nearly as well as a healer class. No non-damage class should be able to do damage even nearly as well as a damage class. And so on. Of course a healer should be able to do some damage, it would be ridiculous if it was totally helpless. But not even close to enough to fill a damage slot in a group.
But each class, without exception, should be able to kill things. Maybe slowly and painfully. Maybe too slowly to make soloing a really good career choice. But enough to kill individual mobs at or near its own level and groups of mobs at significantly lower level (but close enough in level to give some experience).
While VR has said there will be no solo content I take that as meaning they won't go to any effort to design quests and lore and things to do for soloers on a "separate but equal" basis. I very much expect they will have areas where there are friendless mobs wandering around that solo players can kill when they aren't able to group, do not want to group, or are waiting for a group to form.
Nephele's comments are spot-on. Saying that every class should be able to play the game without needing to be in a group 24/7 is *not* even remotely close to saying that every class should be able to do everything. Why should a healer not be able to kill a mob as well as a damage class? Maybe the healer will take 5 minutes to kill one at-level enemy, and finish the fight at full health. Maybe the damage class will kill the enemy in 1 minute, but need 4 minutes to heal back up to full health. This will let them play in a very comparable manner if they wander around the world exploring on their own. Seems quite right to me.
Syrif said:@Naunet That depends. For example, I don’t believe a cleric/healer with melee dps makes sense. And actually, that will already exist (with strong limitations) via the Paladin. Perhaps a Paladin would be a good fit for you?
I didn't say anything specific about cleric, only healers in general, so I'm not sure why you're making play suggestions for me personally. xD
Clerics already have some damage abilities, as does shaman and druid, so suggesting they shouldn't clearly goes against the current design.
Pretty big fan of healers not being forced into DPS during group combat, really disliked how it was pretty much mandatory for healers in FFXIV to heal and DPS. I am however 100% behind healers having some DPS abilities that open up via their healing/defensive abilities, things like a heal/shield/etc opening up use of/procing an instant cast or otherwise resource-neutral damage ability. Just damaging abilities that generally open up from and reward performance in their primary role.
Of course that is only when healing in a group setting, I think doing "meaningful" DPS as a healer should require a majority of the the LAS to be dedicated to the task such that a groups main healer would never be expected to weave in damage (but also I think incoming damage should always be so high that there wouldn't be much time to spare for it anyway, like the fights from the Tower of the Reckless Magician stream against the Gurkha mobs), while at the same time having a second healer in a group could still be beneficial with their DPS/spot healing.
GAMbit said:As for group play, classic classes should excel at their role over hybrid classes. A cleric should be the best healer, but a druid or shaman can still provide some healing, but probably won't be able to keep the group alive in hard content like a cleric can.
Warriors and other warrior types should be the best tanks, but some other classes can offtank if needed, but probably can't main tank bosses.
Thankfully that is not the route this game is going as clear "best in role" class design is awful for MMOs.
fazool said:This topic is about some observations that can be cautionary tales to Pantheon: Rise of The Fallen. It is not off-topic nor about another game - the experiences are used as anecdotes.
I am playing on the 20th anniversary slow progression server of EQ1 and currently in Classic (1999) everquest.
There are a *TON* of people playing and discussions about looking forward to PRF seem to be the norm.
I am playing an Enchanter which is, of course, the ultimate grouping character. It is a little discouraging however that I can't go hunt where I want. I wanted to go to Xorb but there were only 2 other players in the zone. I wanted to go to KFC but it was all singles and duos playing. I went around the world: Gfay-->BB-->FP-->Commonlands-->Kith-->HPH-->EK-->NK-->SK-->Lake Rathe-->Rathe-->Innothule. I didn't get to kill one mob. It was discouraging. Although I am looking for a grouping game, there are times when I want to kill something in particular (maybe very slowly or with more risk).
The travel didn't bother me at all. The inability to do something *I* wanted to do was a real discouragement and reminded me of the disappointment that is very real at times. So I rolled a Mage.
Looking at the LFG window, it's a ton of Druids, Shaman and DPS-ers, especially mages and wizards. I've literally seen *ONE* cleric on LFG since I started playing on the release date. One! That means there aren't enough of them and they are in high demand. It seems like everyone rolled a class that's more "fun" to play. So making each class fun is going to be a real challenge. My groups literally sat around trying to hybrid heal while hoping a cleric pops up.
So there is a definite issue with the fun associated with various classes and the ability to play what/when you want.
The other thing was the micro transactions were rampant. People selling Kronos (which is their way of selling plat for real world money) and the ability to buy plat (via Kronos) and immediately buy healing potions, clarity potions etc. Pure pay-to-win even on a classic progression server.
So, lessons I would like learned:
- Healthy population of people are waiting for PRF
- Even grouping classes need to be able to solo things at their level a little bit
- The "fun" of each class needs to be equivalent. Different type of fun, but comparable in amount of fun
- Being LFG sucks. Hard.
This is pretty selfish my man, what you consider fun isnt fun to someone else, and what someone else considers fun might not be to you, the real rule when choosing a class when playing a multi-class RPG ESPECIALLY in an MMO is pick the class that you have fun with.
Naunet said:Syrif said:@Naunet That depends. For example, I don’t believe a cleric/healer with melee dps makes sense. And actually, that will already exist (with strong limitations) via the Paladin. Perhaps a Paladin would be a good fit for you?I didn't say anything specific about cleric, only healers in general, so I'm not sure why you're making play suggestions for me personally. xD
Clerics already have some damage abilities, as does shaman and druid, so suggesting they shouldn't clearly goes against the current design.
Yes, I realize clerics, druids, and shamans have damage abilities lol. If you reread, I said it doesn’t make sense for clerics to do melee dps. Spell damage and melee dps are two totally different things Naunet. I’m not against the current game design and suggesting so is silly. I’ve only been playing Aradune’s games since 1999 :)
Syrif said:Yes, I realize clerics, druids, and shamans have damage abilities lol. If you reread, I said it doesn’t make sense for clerics to do melee dps. Spell damage and melee dps are two totally different things Naunet. I’m not against the current game design and suggesting so is silly. I’ve only been playing Aradune’s games since 1999 :)
Well the current design looks like it leans toward clerics doing some melee DPS (which I think would be good for healer differentiation/flavor since the other two are spell DPS) given their higher AC/shields/mitigation potential and we already see:
Passive ability. Your successful melee attacks heal you for X% of the damage they deal.
You strike your enemy with a sturdy blow, inflicting Physical damage plus additional Divine damage based on your Wisdom.
A powerful melee attack that deals greater damage the longer you charge the attack before releasing. Undead targets will take additional Divine damage based on your Strength and Wisdom.