The last time I saw this really discussed was a few years ago, but the prevailing opinion is that there's no need to build in a voice chat client to the game. Since Pantheon will (as far as we know) be a PC release, apps such as Discord are ubiquitious and free for people to use. Based on that, it makes more sense to spend those engineering resources on the game itself and allow players to use external programs for voice chat.
Hopefully that answers your question without being an "official" response :)
Built-in really is not necessary when people already have communities they are in using 3rd party systems. Plus, I like not including it because for people like me that do not want to use VC there would be less incentive for people to use it in a general setting.
As long as the game can be "alt-tabbed" or run in fullscreen windowed mode, using external VC applications at the same time won't be an issue.
Iksar said:Last official response was in a stream not too long ago, the answer was no in-game voice chat.
Glad to hear it. It boils down to two things, in my experience: 1) No-one wants to pay the licensing fees for the G.729A codec, and it's the only one that sounds good at the low bit rates involved. 2) there's at least 5 different free alternatives that most people that are inclined are going to be using anyway. In some cases, no, in the majority of cases, the bandwidth required to get good VOIP quality is higher than the bandwidth the MMO client uses for all other game related traffic. As if latency wasn't already bad enough. Yes, you can apply enough bandwidth to almost any codec to get it to sound "good enough" but the value of the codecs is in how they sound at 8-16kbit/sec, not having to use 96-128k.
The consequence of 1) is I've never seen an MMO do it well, yet. They always cheap out and use Speex or something godawfully similar and you get all the auditory fidelity of an underwater tin can with 4 zombie cats fighting in the background. Not ideal. Even if they used GSM it would be fine, but nope.
Slydog75 said:I think what people are missing is that yes, it's easy to find an alternative, but if you're forming a pick-up group, then it becomes a big pain. While I don't think it's a critical element, built in VOIP would be a welcome feature for me.
It's a fair point. However:
1) If the game does this, how much do they need to invest to get the quality to be decent? I've played games with integrated voice chat before, and I can count on my fingers the number of times it actually worked decently for the parties I was in. There was always someone who sounded like a robot, or who had a 5-second delay, or some other terrible experience. Pull them all into an outside program like Discord, and magically all that pain went away.
2) Building voice chat into the game client can lead to the perception that it is a requirement. Imagine that you're a deaf person trying to play the game, and you get kicked out of every group you join because you can't hear them in voice chat? Or, maybe more common, imagine that you've got two small children playing in the next room that you need to keep an ear out for, and so you find groups getting mad at you because you aren't fully listening in voice chat. You might think that these are rare situations but, being honest, I don't think they are. Just in my own medium sized guild over the years, I've had busy parents, hearing-impaired people, and folks in other situations where they simply could not run sound or even put on a headset to get into voice chat. Even the ones that could often could only do it if they had made arrangements in advance not to be disturbed by their families in real life.
I know that all of us here would say "oh that's cool, if someone can't use voice chat they don't have to - but the reality is that all it takes is a small number of people who decide not to be accomodating to other players, and the damage is done, perception-wise. I consider that a drawback to integrated voice chat. At least without it, there's less of an expectation that everyone will get in voice.
To me, voice chat represents the modern MMO style where no one types, no one says anything to anyone, they form an auto group, run through a dungeon without a word and disband at the end. In short, it makes me think of everything I hate about MMOs now. Irrational to a degree, I know, but it is how I feel. I like having it for guilds and for stuff like that, but I hate when it is so ubiquitous that it becomes required for everything.
Slydog75 said: So don't use it, why would you fight against the option?
Normally I would agree with you but if it has built in voice then the playerbase is going to expect you to use it. You have to take into account how the users of this game are going to react to features.
Add Voice Chat: Expected to be used, peer pressure to use it since it's the "standard".
No Voice Chat: Not expected to use it, less peer pressure to join random voice groups.
I could just as easily advocate for you to invite people to your discord, mumble, or whatever you have if you want to have voice chat with people.
Slydog75 said: So don't use it, why would you fight against the option?
I think because the presence of it suggests it should be used, there by having the "social norm" as it should be used and discouraging grouping with people who choose not to use it.
Then there is also the thing that it is another feature VR has to manage, use bandwidth for, etc... when players can choose to use 3rd party as they see fit without the game wasting resources to cater to it.
Good points made on both sides, though I tend to lean more towards not including it. As mentioned, it would feel more required than a convenient addition. Besides there is something about text conversations that gets lost in the noise of talking, and it diminishes from the emersion of the soundscape they are creating to bring us into a living world.
And finally, a point I'm surprised hasn't been mentioned yet, if they pull people off of current projects to work on an unrequired in game voice chat, that will further delay the launch of the game.
I know everyone assume this game is going to be played by an older group, which will hopefully be more mature, but everyone isn't going to be that way. In Overwatch, Apex, Sea of Thieves, and a few other games with built in VoIP I've had to mute a ton of people just due to the open mics they run. I don't need to know what's going on in your entire house. People clamour for immersion but even in a game that doesn't rely on immersion to be enjoyable hearing a baby crying in the back ground, someone getting yelled at, someone open mouth chewing... those are going to be game breaking to me in Pantheon.
I totally get that VoIP wouldn't be required. In a FPS game its easy to mute the entire group and just play my game, because there is no social aspect required to ensure I get to play again. In a "community matters" MMO you are going to be held to the norms of the community. If those norms become "use VoIP" then even if I don't want to I'm going to be forced into it because if I don't adhere to the norms I will risk the chance of being ostracized.
I don't want to prevent you from having VoIP with randoms. I don't want to force you to type to chat. I'm not advocating to limit communication tool people want to use for this game. What I asking for is don't design in a vacuum. You have to consider how the community, good and bad, will use a feature and then consider if its worth it.
~edit spelling
HemlockReaper said: Anyone know the stream/post they mentioned not including Voip as a game feature?
The latest was from the MMORPG Interview (1:11:08) with Chris "Joppa" Perkins and Brad "Aradune" McQuaid.
GoofyWarriorGuy said:HemlockReaper said: Anyone know the stream/post they mentioned not including Voip as a game feature?
The latest was from the MMORPG Interview (1:11:08) with Chris "Joppa" Perkins and Brad "Aradune" McQuaid.
Thanks, this comes as a surprise given the heated debates a couple years ago, albeit a welcomed one.
This is an issue not just about choise.
I have dislexa and it takes me up to 3m to type out and then corect with serching for words becuse spell check looks at some words and just goes puft :).
This makes text much harder to both read and type. Voice must be an option for Anyone who has a disability. Wether its in game or setup on discord or other app.
I agree if voise becomes main chat ext then that will diminish the game but there were good resons why thay even thought about it and may not be about watering down Panthion.
Geoffreypa said:This is an issue not just about choise.
I have dislexa and it takes me up to 3m to type out and then corect with serching for words becuse spell check looks at some words and just goes puft :).
This makes text much harder to both read and type. Voice must be an option for Anyone who has a disability. Wether its in game or setup on discord or other app.
I agree if voise becomes main chat ext then that will diminish the game but there were good resons why thay even thought about it and may not be about watering down Panthion.
If there were no viable options, that would be a valid point, but 3rd party chat/voice programs are a dime a dozen, free to setup and easy to join. It isn't like the days of Roger Wilco where trying to get people to setup, connect, etc... was a challenge.