Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Agro chase range and length

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    • 264 posts
    March 16, 2019 10:44 AM PDT

     Leashing is bad design if you are trying to make a dangerous world. Saying the zone line is a leash point is fine, just keep in mind in most zones that means running a long way. To have similar design with leashing the leash range would need to be extremely long and why even bother with leashing at that point? Even in the lower level zones there needs to be some dangerous mobs that can kill in a few hits, mobs that can move very quickly, etc. And at the higher levels in the most dangerous zones players need to be getting rooted, summoned, feared, etc. just to up the ante. High lvl mobs should always have some kind of ranged attack or spell to make life difficult for kiters too. As for 'defender' type mobs BamBam mentions that really is up to VR how they want to handle that...those mobs could have short leashes I guess? But my point is that leashed mobs are far less dangerous. You mention the roaming red mob and having to die, run to zone or to a guard (or to high lvl players in the area). I don't consider this an 'unwanted situation' in terms of game design it is more of an unwanted situation for the player. So let's say the player gets killed in that scenario. They either learn to be more aware of that wandering mob, get an invis and/or speed buff, or ask a higher level to help them get through the zone. Could NPCs have stamina and get tired out and stop chasing? Sure, but if that's the case then the player needs to also be able to run out of stamina and tire out, it must be a double edged sword.

     Aggro range is something VR will need to figure out, I cannot say what the ideal range would be or which mobs should be the most aggressive that is up to them. But if the aggro range is too short the world will be too easy to traverse and pulling etc. will be too easy.

    • 1714 posts
    March 16, 2019 12:05 PM PDT

    This is where they say the dispotision system may come into play. Currently I believe aggro is maintained until you zone or do something like FD. Yoyoing is total cheese. Just because it's "modern" doesn't make it better than having to zone. Requiring zoning creates an awesome dynamic that doesn't exist in other games. 


    This post was edited by Keno Monster at March 16, 2019 12:05 PM PDT
    • 3852 posts
    March 16, 2019 12:38 PM PDT

     

    ((That is my issue, not creating a clone of EQ, but achieving the same result in play, regardless of the system. The game needs to achieve the same level of risk vs reward and consequence in play or it is yet another watered down modern MMO. ))

     

    Oddly enough this is the identical point that I have been trying to make. For years and in many threads. That the core principles involved here are the need to have the world slow and challenging. That the precise *way* this is done is not critical as long as it *is* done.

    Take traning (the topic here). There are two good reasons to support it.

    Reason one is it adds to the difficulty level. But there are other ways to make Pantheon properly difficult and challenging. So perhaps we can all agree that we want VR to make the game challenging and this is one way to do it but if they come up with a way that works just as well or better we have no reason to complain. Except as covered in point *two*. Personally I don't think they will come up with a better way - not because they cannot but because they see training as proven and tested. And because of point two, I have argued that they should come up with something better than training not because I find training makes the game too difficult but because I feel it *wrong* to give another player a way to attack me - not steal my mobs but attack *me* and kill me -on a PvE server using training. On your point that it is a good way to add more challenge to the game I actually agree.

    Reason two is that training was used in EQ and other things being even close to equal it is good to use things from EQ and Vanguard. Playing the nostalgia card hurts no one and makes many old veterans of those games happier. As long as the devices work well in the Pantheon context. I may say don't copy EQ. I *have* said don't copy EQ. But I have always agreed that taking popular mechanics and reusing them is an excellent idea if they do not hurt the game. Same theory as corpse runs - obviously there are other ways to make death sting but this is a way that many core supporters like.

    So I agree that training makes the game harder and this is good - other things being equal. I agree it plays the nostalgia card and this is good - other things being equal. I simply have a *very* strong dislike of any game mechanism that lets another player kill me outside of outright PvP. So I will argue to the end that VR should come up with a better approach. I will argue realism and immersion and I like realism and immersion. But my core aversion to training is based on gameplay not realisim or immersion. No one should be allowed to have me attacked and killed on a PvE server (and we all know that there is no remedy unless someone does it so often it is obviously griefing or is stupid enough to say "ha ha got you" for the GMs to see.)


    This post was edited by dorotea at March 16, 2019 12:44 PM PDT
    • 84 posts
    March 16, 2019 12:44 PM PDT

    You lose a lot of great gameplay and interdependence when you reduce the consequences of aggro.

     

    1)  Movement based buffs such as Spirit of the Wolf have less value.

    2)  Classes that have some type of a Pacify or Calm spell are a little less valuable to have in your group.

    3)  Less incentive to gain Faction, which can be used to reduce aggro radius or eliminate it by gaining enough reputation with a given group.

    4)  Spell lines that change your form and along with it your Faction with various groups would also be less valuable.

     

    Aggro also reinforces good gameplay and rewards skilled players and groups who pay attention to their surroundings.

    Given the above, my choice would be to have aggro work like it used to in Everquest, you either kill the mob(s) you have aggro with or zone.

    • 9115 posts
    March 16, 2019 7:05 PM PDT

    Thread cleaned up - removed all off-topic discussion and opinions on members.

    The thread is a combined duplicate - Multiple threads exist on both topics of leashing and aggro.

    Aggrohttps://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/3094/agro-range-and-line-of-site

    Leashing - Official CM post - https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/3748/leashing-or-deal-with-it

    Leashing - Community discussion - https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2491/leashing-did-we-have-it-already

     

    For reasons listed above, the thread will now be closed.

    CM note: 

    Please try to be friendly with your replies and/or debates, we have a very mature, passionate, social and close-knit community and I am receiving more and more complaints from people who refrain from posting due to the aggressive nature of some community members forcing their opinions or views on others.

    While these are not offences listed under our guidelines, they are affecting our community in a negative manner and will be addressed if it continues.

    So please, have respect for each other and try and relax a bit on the aggressive stances you hold over certain topics, as opinions won't change our game or steer us off course from our vision, so try and keep this in mind when discussing topics with each other and feel free to ignore someones opinion or direct quote completely if you cannot reason with them or you feel as though it would be a waste of everyone's time to continue the discussion. You do not have to publically win a debate with someones strong opinion to stop us from changing the game - We have a vision and a roadmap and nothing said by one person stuck in their ways will change that, no matter how well they phrase it or how well they win a debate on our forums.

    Try to post with the mentality that a group of your peers (or family) are reading over your shoulder and if that means taking a break or stopping and re-reading your entire post again before clicking submit, then do it, you will see your post quality increase and respect within the community increase.

    Remember, we are all here because we want Pantheon to succeed! So be nice to each other, please :)


    This post was edited by VR-Mod1 at March 16, 2019 7:08 PM PDT