It's a tricky subject. There are so many variables.
Theoretically, I would love it if there were different AI reasons for monsters to give up the chase other than zoning out, but you always have to consider the unintentional side-effects of training, content avoidance and other grief and exploit situations.
I suppose any approach will have it's weaknesses so perhaps as long as they *add* to the tactics and immersion of the situation it's all good.
Take the example of a guard. It perhaps should like to stay near it's guard post, so won't chase you far before returning. I like that as a tactical variance - it stops him being trained away for people to pass that point - which is the intent of a 'guard'. But if players find the point at which he returns and then can step back and forth over the threshold causing the guard to run back and forth so people can pass anyway, then that's not so good. I'm sure there are ways for that sort of thing to be avoided, but I can see that even from that one example, mechanics could start to get very complex!
As I say, theoretically, it would be brilliant though! I have faith VR can do it! Much like the disposition system - it's a development complexity, but would really add to the dynamics and tactics of the situation.
Perhaps instead of a named boss rampaging through his domain to the zone, once he gets a certain distance he goes back, but sends a dozen guards in his stead? Or maybe his little brother spawns and gives chase? His faster little brother! That kind of thing could be great fun!
The idea I had for this was utilizing a combination the threat mechanic and home areas. Home areas do not need to be centered on the spawn point of the mob (I hate static spawn points anyway) but are rather a bounding area that is considered the mobs home territory.
While a player is inside the home territory of an agroed mob then the threat does not naturally decay. Outside of the home area threat exponentially decays until it reaches 0 at which point it will return to its home area and almost no amount of threat will counter act the decay rate after a certain number of seconds outside of its home area. How far a mob chases you out of its home area is a function of how mad it is at you.
Standard threat generation from combat will obviously be the primary source of agro generation but being in the home area of an aggressive mob will also naturally generate a certain amount of threat. This natural agro will be the source of most trains but also because the generation is so light that they will not follow you long after leaving their home territory but mobs you have been in combat with will chase you further. I really don’t want you to be able to escape a bad fight just by jumping through a nearby zone line but being chased over a mile by something you just walked too close to also doesn’t make sense.
There are many ways dispositions could be used to modify this behavior. Patrollers could chase you for a very long distance as its their job. Point Defenders could refuse to be moved far away from their base points. Mobs could even choose to run away from you, de-aggroing you in the process if you are much stronger than it and you have the choice to chase it down. The home area of mobs in a dungeon will most likely be the area between their spawn point and the boss. That way if you run into a dungeon everything will keep following you forever but running outward might strip off the deeper mobs.
Not quite tethering and not quite "only death will satisfy me, or that invisible wall that is at the edge of the universe"
A re-agro component would be cool as well.
In the case of the guard, I agro the guard I run. He reaches his max chase range and turns back, but now I am on his "watch list" so now his agro range for me is larger, as if he is aware of my presence and watching or me, and possible even takes different actions based on this. Maybe if I agro him a couple times, then the next time he calls out assistance, and now I have another guard are 2 on my tail who may not be tied to thier guard spot and can give chase farther. Maybe even they send out a search party.
Although one thing about agro that always kind of baffled me is how quickly a KOS npc would agro. I mean how do they know who I am, is there a post office with pictures of all their enemies tht they study everyday. :)
A while ago someone posted how undead mobs in particular should have a addition to their aggro disposition in that they haunt the player. So from a haunting perspective the aggro would be zone wide, once the undead mob is aggro'd it will haunt you to the end of the zone.
Building on above posts, maybe that range will gradually decrease? the longer you are out of zone? or maybe just for undead, it never ends but is singular. so when you zone back in- even a month later- the undead mob remembers you as soon as you zone in an makes its way toward you. But only the one undead mob you did not kill the first time. In other words, if you "put to rest" the undead thats it. however if you cant put it to rest or kill it it will remember you untill you do- or until someone else kills it allowing it to respawn as normal.
I would also like to see if a mob is wounded and runs, its NPC to NPC aggro is increased. That means any other NPC the wounded NPC runs by will aggro the player that wounded the NPC and run after the player for wounding one of their own. the deeper the wounded NPC runs, the more normal NPC's come training up (think unrest basement, or the warrens)
What would make haunting different from wounded would be undead would not aggro other undead as it makes its way past them, (but may aggro priests? or crypt tenders?) and be singular in nature in that it is only the one player or group of players that the undead will go after when they zone back in. The problem I see with this: is the built in single pull undead mechanic my idea suggests. In that a rogue can go in, go deep, tag a undead- and run out (or get cothed?) everyone zones. Waits a bit. Then everyone zones back in and that one undead single pulls itself to attack the group at ZI because of the 'haunting" mechanic.
It makes sense for aggro behavior to vary by type of enemy.
A guard should have some discipline and return to its area of responsibility relatively fast. Smallest tether.
An animal should have some intelligence and not follow once it becomes clear that it is not having any luck catching you. Medium tether.
A mindless enemy not programmed (by magic or otherwise) to do otherwise might chase until you zone out or teleport out of its ability to sense you. Largest tether.
Great oversimplifications here, of course.
Reality vs practical game play.
There are some things where reality does not fit well, so practical game play is used instead.
Tethering killed a lot of the risk in gaming. It promoted players running through areas without any care or worry about the consequences. In doing such, this also helped to make the world feel smaller as players were able to circumvent content by simply running through an area. Now this was stil done with EQ to some extent, but it usually required people using spells to accomplish it. That is, invis to get around, or in some cases fast run speed spells to run faster than the mobs. This however was combated with instituting various mob spells/abilities (see invis, stuns, dispel magic to remove a players spells, etc...) which would allow the mob to catch up to the player and kill them. This retained the risk of exploration and punished those who did so with reckless abandon. Even if the player was able to out run the mob, if they weren't heading to another zone line, they would have to fight the mob anyway as it would eventually catch up.
The problem with leashing is that it gives a "get out of jail free" card to the player. Once a player figures out the basic length of the leash, they know that all they have to do is survive long enough to run them to the end of it. This becomes a gimmick and players cheat the system as they run through zones (similar to most modern MMOs) to thier location. Imagine you are running to a camp somewhere in the middle of the zone. If it is a zone wide no-tether mob system, the player must travel to their camp with extreme care or they will agro a mob and their only option will be to fight it, die, or use a spell to escape.
If it is a tether system, the player only needs to recognize the length of the mobs leashes and then run in a pattern or length that will cause them to reach it. This, much like running through various modern games will provide travel with a known outcome concerning the mobs. This takes away the responsibility and consequence in travel and exploration, it removes the danger and makes it where players can more easily get around the content. A subtle thing, but a thing that has a negative impact on game play.
I mean, lets be honest, if we are going to use "realism" as an argument, we will then have to change numerous things about the game because they don't make any sense (ie 3rd person view, economic systems without the cost of living, etc...). Even if you could make the entire world "realistic", this won't make it a good game, in fact it may ruin the game completely.
@Tanix
Better pathing mechanics and eliminating terrain exploits will go a long way to making even temporary agro very dangerous. Running in a zigzag to confuse the pathing algorithm isn’t emergent game play its exploitive game play and should be either punished or patched, most likely both if the intent to exploit is there after listening to the CS dev talk video.
Dynamic agro and chase mechanics are a step in making Pantheon a better game than Everquest. It’s not a matter of realism is a matter of quality of design. If agro is just binary like it was in EQ mobs can only chase forever. There is no room for improving the design there and opens up a lot of exploitive pulling ideas where you stick a mob on an object or pull them out of a dangerous environment trivializing the battle with it. You also facilitate kitting mobs around forever without taking damage which is one of the most unbalancing skill combinations.
If you are worried about people freely wandering about a zone, and running directly through a camp then address it with speed debuffs and sprint chase mechanics that get melee mobs in range of the offending player immediately.
I would put forward that infinite follow is open to even greater exploitation than tethering is.
BamBam said: Tanix i disagree. Traveling will still matter it will just be less of a tedious pain, that I agree with. Players still need to fight a mob and kill it, to lvl and to progress. That's nothing to do with moving from one part of the game to another. Realism is important with it comes immersion, but as you say there need to be limits. Mobs chasing you through the entier zone is a old relic, that we do not need to being to the future.
You are essentially admitting it will be easier and by doing such, you do agree with my point that leashing mobs will reduce the consequence and danger in the world in travel.
Immersion is a subjective aspect and I don't think that is your primary reason for wanting this as your first instinct was to point out how it would be easier and less tedious. It seems to me that is your primary goal here, to remove consequence in play to make it easier.
Now I am open to changes that achieve the same results. That is, what can be implemented in such changes that will still retain the risk in travel that no leashes provide? As you said, this is not your goal, making it easier to travel, removing the risk in travel so that the game is less "tedious" for you is the goal.
That is in essence a desire to, forgive my poor use of words "dumb down the game" to appeal to audiences that prefer being entertained over playing a game, something I believe this entire game was created because that is what all games are today?
So does implementing features into a game that are counter to the very concept to which this game is being developed moving into the future? I mean, this game is attempting to look to the past because it is the past to which has been removed, and with it the game play so many people miss today.
So I completely disagree with you and think your outlook on what is healthy for this game is counter productive to what a game is and that leads us down a road to modern MMOs, not the ones of the past to which many of us chose Pantheon for.
Trasak said:@Tanix
Better pathing mechanics and eliminating terrain exploits will go a long way to making even temporary agro very dangerous. Running in a zigzag to confuse the pathing algorithm isn’t emergent game play its exploitive game play and should be either punished or patched, most likely both if the intent to exploit is there after listening to the CS dev talk video.
Dynamic agro and chase mechanics are a step in making Pantheon a better game than Everquest. It’s not a matter of realism is a matter of quality of design. If agro is just binary like it was in EQ mobs can only chase forever. There is no room for improving the design there and opens up a lot of exploitive pulling ideas where you stick a mob on an object or pull them out of a dangerous environment trivializing the battle with it. You also facilitate kitting mobs around forever without taking damage which is one of the most unbalancing skill combinations.
If you are worried about people freely wandering about a zone, and running directly through a camp then address it with speed debuffs and sprint chase mechanics that get melee mobs in range of the offending player immediately.
I would put forward that infinite follow is open to even greater exploitation than tethering is.
If you leash mobs, it will provide players the ablity to circumvent the dangers in travel (the one thing that is lacking in MMOs today). This is the primary reason why many like leashing. The idea of having to fight ones way through an entire zone or with extreme danger carefully naviagte is as some have said "tedious" play. That is, the goal is to be able to safely move from place to place. It is the same concept which has led to "Trash" mobs being removed, in order to facilitate players being able to get to boss mobs faster. Each change, each adjustment serves to increase the speed in game play, and reduce the size of the world. These are subtle things, but they are among many important ones that were removed over the years which have created the modern MMO.
I don't find kiting mobs to be offensive as some though, but I understand some of the abuses. This however is easily remedied by putting in more intelligent counter mechanics by mobs as I explained (dispell, stuns, rooting, npcs with run speed, see invis, CC, charm, etc...). I have no doubt such could be implemented to where the person running through mobs would not be able to escape. but lets be honest, this isn't what this is all about, is it?
I'm not for leashing range but I would like something like "more humanlike behaviour", even if I'm not sure of what can be done that would NOT be exploited in a positive way by players.
Mob chasing you untill it becomes risky for them (players in sight maybe ? ), not leashing if you're low on life untill a threshold of proximity players, etc...
I think, following to zone is too restrictive at low levels and too easy to exploit at high levels, while leashing is just too easy at both. Something unpredictable, mobs taking cover from ranged ennemies, using grapple to drag a player back in their camp, etc...
MauvaisOeil said:I'm not for leashing range but I would like something like "more humanlike behaviour", even if I'm not sure of what can be done that would NOT be exploited in a positive way by players.
Mob chasing you untill it becomes risky for them (players in sight maybe ? ), not leashing if you're low on life untill a threshold of proximity players, etc...
I think, following to zone is too restrictive at low levels and too easy to exploit at high levels, while leashing is just too easy at both. Something unpredictable, mobs taking cover from ranged ennemies, using grapple to drag a player back in their camp, etc...
Well, the problem as I said with leashing is that it removes the risk of going to a location "within" the zone. So, if lets say leashing is allowed, then the player only needs to know how long, and then run them mobs off on their way to their location.
With no leashes, you couldn't do that. As I said, if your camp was in the middle of the zone, the only way to get to the camp was to avoid the mobs using tools (invis, stealth, careful navigation by watching agro range, pathers, FD, etc...) or fight your way to the location. This took time, it was risky.
So how do you achieve that level of risk and responsiblity with leashes? See, the real risk is there are no leashes, no railings, no safety nets. The player has to deal with what they agro or run all the way to the zone.
What I loved about this is that it made people be careful in areas they weren't knowledgable in. It made exploring a dungeon for the first time nerve wracking because if you got lost, if you didn't have run speed, or something to help you get to the zone fast, you would have to fight what you agrod. There was no "easy run" to a camp without consequence. This is the essence of what EQ provided, that constant feeling of danger, that elation when you were able to get through a dangerous area (kithcor forrest), the knowledge that because your group was skilled, careful and responsible, your moving deep into a dungeon or area meant that most people would not be there around you.
Leashing doesn't need to be a fixed distance from spawn nor does it need to be a fixed chase duration but there's no logical reason that any given mob would chase someone forever.
I'd like to see a more dynamic system where:
* Some mobs will chase you the moment you enter their line of sight, i.e. no fixed aggro range.
* Other mobs won't really care so much or maybe even run away as soon as they see you.
* Many mobs who chase you might only run to where you were standing before you ran away.
* Some few others would chase you until you "lost" them. For this you should be able to hide somewhere and breathe a sigh of relief as they run past you, etc.
* If a chasing mob loses track of you they might spend some time searching, particularly if there is a group of mobs.
* Very rarely would a mob chase you until they can chase no more, e.g. zone line.
* Mobs that chase as a group would chase a bit longer, i.e. mob mentality.
* Many mobs can run faster than the average player so your chance of being run down is pretty high.
I don't see the "exploit" problem even in old EQ. How can running away be considered an exploit even if you're running through a dangerous area? Consider RL where you might stupidly decide to run through an African plain populated by a whole family of predators. Those predators will only chase you so far. Of course this assumes you can outrun them (ha!) but those predators aren't going to chase you all the way to the Mediteranian Sea.
Maybe we also should factor in exhaustion, both for the player and the mob.
Akilae said:Leashing doesn't need to be a fixed distance from spawn nor does it need to be a fixed chase duration but there's no logical reason that any given mob would chase someone forever.
I'd like to see a more dynamic system where:
* Some mobs will chase you the moment you enter their line of sight, i.e. no fixed aggro range.
* Other mobs won't really care so much or maybe even run away as soon as they see you.
* Many mobs who chase you might only run to where you were standing before you ran away.
* Some few others would chase you until you "lost" them. For this you should be able to hide somewhere and breathe a sigh of relief as they run past you, etc.
* If a chasing mob loses track of you they might spend some time searching, particularly if there is a group of mobs.
* Very rarely would a mob chase you until they can chase no more, e.g. zone line.
* Mobs that chase as a group would chase a bit longer, i.e. mob mentality.
* Many mobs can run faster than the average player so your chance of being run down is pretty high.I don't see the "exploit" problem even in old EQ. How can running away be considered an exploit even if you're running through a dangerous area? Consider RL where you might stupidly decide to run through an African plain populated by a whole family of predators. Those predators will only chase you so far. Of course this assumes you can outrun them (ha!) but those predators aren't going to chase you all the way to the Mediteranian Sea.
Maybe we also should factor in exhaustion, both for the player and the mob.
Logic isn't the point though. Game play mechanic is. In your examples, a lot of mobs would have a leash point (a point where they will stop) and once the players learn this, they will then easily be able to traverse an area by running the mobs to their leash points.
When every mob runs to the zone line, travel becomes more dangerous.
I think it was said in an interview that mobs will chase you to the zone line.
I remember in EQ that you could out run a mob that you aggroed and 10 minutes later it would find you and attack. At some point it changed so that when you were a certain distance from the mob it would stop chasing. This is different from tethering in that you can pull the mobs all the way to the zone if you stop or slow down giving the mob tme to catch up and stay in the aggro range.
Tanix said:Akilae said:Leashing doesn't need to be a fixed distance from spawn nor does it need to be a fixed chase duration but there's no logical reason that any given mob would chase someone forever.
I'd like to see a more dynamic system where:
* Some mobs will chase you the moment you enter their line of sight, i.e. no fixed aggro range.
* Other mobs won't really care so much or maybe even run away as soon as they see you.
* Many mobs who chase you might only run to where you were standing before you ran away.
* Some few others would chase you until you "lost" them. For this you should be able to hide somewhere and breathe a sigh of relief as they run past you, etc.
* If a chasing mob loses track of you they might spend some time searching, particularly if there is a group of mobs.
* Very rarely would a mob chase you until they can chase no more, e.g. zone line.
* Mobs that chase as a group would chase a bit longer, i.e. mob mentality.
* Many mobs can run faster than the average player so your chance of being run down is pretty high.I don't see the "exploit" problem even in old EQ. How can running away be considered an exploit even if you're running through a dangerous area? Consider RL where you might stupidly decide to run through an African plain populated by a whole family of predators. Those predators will only chase you so far. Of course this assumes you can outrun them (ha!) but those predators aren't going to chase you all the way to the Mediteranian Sea.
Maybe we also should factor in exhaustion, both for the player and the mob.
Logic isn't the point though. Game play mechanic is. In your examples, a lot of mobs would have a leash point (a point where they will stop) and once the players learn this, they will then easily be able to traverse an area by running the mobs to their leash points.
When every mob runs to the zone line, travel becomes more dangerous.
More annoying, yes, but not more dangerous. If they chase to zone then you zone out and back in. Problem solved. The zone line is still effectively a leash point.
@Tanix
Ensuring risk for running across an area carelessly can be accomplished in many ways other than infinite follow. Mob and player speed should be a function of the difficulty of the area. A slow moving powerful hitter will encourage hit and run combat. A mob that actively jumps or sprints to chase down a player or switch agro targets rapidly will be very dangerous.
I think VR should heavily consider putting in run/sprint as a stamina drain function. Magical speed plus walk speed will still be less than most mobs sprint speed. The caveat is that you can only sprint for so long before your stamina runs out. Both the sprint and walk speed for mobs can have variations as well as the creature’s stamina for running. Basically the difference between a cheetah, a lion, a bear, and a horse.
Even if you are speed walking across a zone with magical enhancements you will not be able to sprint all the way across. When to use your sprint should be the tactical decision, and if you use it wrong then you are lunch.
Tanix said:MauvaisOeil said:I'm not for leashing range but I would like something like "more humanlike behaviour", even if I'm not sure of what can be done that would NOT be exploited in a positive way by players.
Mob chasing you untill it becomes risky for them (players in sight maybe ? ), not leashing if you're low on life untill a threshold of proximity players, etc...
I think, following to zone is too restrictive at low levels and too easy to exploit at high levels, while leashing is just too easy at both. Something unpredictable, mobs taking cover from ranged ennemies, using grapple to drag a player back in their camp, etc...
Well, the problem as I said with leashing is that it removes the risk of going to a location "within" the zone. So, if lets say leashing is allowed, then the player only needs to know how long, and then run them mobs off on their way to their location.
With no leashes, you couldn't do that. As I said, if your camp was in the middle of the zone, the only way to get to the camp was to avoid the mobs using tools (invis, stealth, careful navigation by watching agro range, pathers, FD, etc...) or fight your way to the location. This took time, it was risky.
So how do you achieve that level of risk and responsiblity with leashes? See, the real risk is there are no leashes, no railings, no safety nets. The player has to deal with what they agro or run all the way to the zone.
What I loved about this is that it made people be careful in areas they weren't knowledgable in. It made exploring a dungeon for the first time nerve wracking because if you got lost, if you didn't have run speed, or something to help you get to the zone fast, you would have to fight what you agrod. There was no "easy run" to a camp without consequence. This is the essence of what EQ provided, that constant feeling of danger, that elation when you were able to get through a dangerous area (kithcor forrest), the knowledge that because your group was skilled, careful and responsible, your moving deep into a dungeon or area meant that most people would not be there around you.
The issue here is not the leashing, but how to avoid players outrunning mobs easily. If you can hardly physically escape a mob you've aggroed, then a realistic "I quit" of an ennemy is possible in AI.
The common scenario we know from EQ is "I aggro, get hit once at most and not stunned, and run away with sow/selo's and stop caring".
What if the ennemy would stun you, charge you, slow you down and you could only escape them if you really had a lot advance to begin with, or by jumping from walls, cliffs and taking the risk to die from falling ?
The idea is not to create a safer behaviour, but something different that would be closer to realistic ennemy behaviour.