Forums » The Shaman

Why will you be a Shaman

    • 11 posts
    February 22, 2019 9:28 AM PST

    I've read a lot of posts complaining about various aspects of how Pantheon is currently planning on doing Shamen, and more posts about what they wish would happen.

    What I want to know is; what you're excited about the Shaman as it stands, and what made you say "I think I'm going to make a Shaman when the time comes."?

    • 1288 posts
    February 22, 2019 2:06 PM PST

    I've always played a shaman in every game that has one.  So far the shaman has been a support/utility class where you are there to make others better.  A force amplifier basically.  Doing a lot of different things depending upon the situation.  Each iteration of the shaman has had good things and bad, things I liked and disliked and the Pantheon shaman will be no different.  I'm just hoping that what I will eventually like will outweigh those things I will dislike.

    From the class reveal and the racial options I can see some interesting mechanics that I would enjoy greatly.

    Good things:
    -Primordial Bonds Healing others also heals myself will be helpful as I will have to spend less time casting dedicated heals on myself.
    -Ancient Focus.  As I don't see any Cannibalization (health to mana conversation ala EQ1) having our health/mana regen keep the much higher out-of-combat regeneration could be a good tradeoff..though I would still prefer Cannibalization as with that you can compensate more based upon need whereas Ancient Focus is just a fixed rate.
    -Agewalkers Gift.  Being able to rez self in this ghost form could be very helpful..unless the distance limit is so small as to be worthless.
    -Hurry The Past.  As the heal descriptions all point to them being Heal over Times (no single direct heal), the ability to 'hurry' up a HoT as a compensation is a good replacement.  The wording though is interesting "All healing over time abilities"...not just the Shaman. So any other class that also has a HoT running will benefit from this.
    -Agewalkers Companion Glad we get a pet, hopefully it will actually have useful abilities that are combat related and not just fluff.

    Bad things:
    -Part The Veil.  Nice we get a rez, sucks you can't use it in combat so you'd better hope that you can kill whatever is in front of you without whomever just died otherwise this is worthless.
    -Parth The Veil with Agewalkers Gift.  If you have Agewalkers Gift active you can then use Part the Veil in combat...but you yourself have to already be dead.  So yeah..if you're the sole priest in a group and you're already dead and one other person is also dead, what are the chances the rest of the group will kill whatever just killed 2 of you?
    -Keeper of the Elemental Masteries. Not thrilled that we need to keep a bunch of extra resists up on someone just so our heals are at their best.  Kinda pointless to keep a cold resist buff up when you're in a lava/fire dungeon just so you don't miss out on X% of healing power.

    Neutral Things:
    All the buffs, debuffs and DoTs.  It will depend upon their strengths and durations.  If they are too weak, they wil be a waste of mana.  If their durations are too short, you'll spend all your time rebuffing/reapplying them.

    • 42 posts
    February 22, 2019 8:22 PM PST

    I havent read the complains lol, but dont really get em because I'm having a hard time choosing either shaman or druid. They both look like awesome healer/support and yeah there will be some stuff I like more then on it and some I wont like ,but VR is making a character for the public not specifically tailored for you. I've been shaman in a few games and lol this one has very different concepts and some really cool stuff that I am crazy to test on.

    • 265 posts
    February 23, 2019 12:14 PM PST

    Vandraad said:

    -Keeper of the Elemental Masteries. Not thrilled that we need to keep a bunch of extra resists up on someone just so our heals are at their best.  Kinda pointless to keep a cold resist buff up when you're in a lava/fire dungeon just so you don't miss out on X% of healing power.

    First off, note that KoEM only works with offensive spells, i.e. debuffs, DOT's, etc.  Buffs won't count towards the % healing bonuses.  

    Anyway, I have a very different take on Keeper of Elemental Mysteries which is one of the thigns I like best about the Shaman design.  I don't think that shaman healing will be balanced on having high stacks of KoEM.  The reason for this is related to the significant restrictions on player spell selection and use.  There are six possible schools that can give a KoEM bonus (Water, Fire, Earth, Wind, Animus, Ancestral).  So to max KoEM would use half of your skill slots on offensive abilities (assuming they stick with 12 slots).  Looking at the current set of skills, you could feasible stack that many dots/debuffs without missing anyting major.  However, there are two possibilites that could make stacking 6 debuffs/dots very costly: 1) down-ranking of healing spells becomes vital for efficiency and 2) additional skills are discovered that are neccessary to slot.  

    Furthermore, you have to think about mana considerations.  If healing output is boosted by 5-10% for each KoEM stack but overall mana cost goes up on average 25% per stack (spitballing), then it's probably not reasonable to balance shaman healing around KoEM.  You simply won't have enough mana to go around fully debuffing/dotting enemies while utlizing your full arsenal of healing spells to heal a group.  But what if you aren't the primary healer of the group?  Say you're trying to fill a hybrid DPS/healing role, then KoEM is going to allow you to occasionally toss out powerful/efficient HOT's.  I feel like this is going to be a really nice niche for the shaman.  Will we be able to serve as the primary/solo healer in a group?  Yes.  But if you are looking for the group compositions that are the most powerful, you'll probably see shaman more frequently in that second healer spot as a DPS/buffing/debuffing role.  

    Now, I do think there is a possibe tweak for KoEM that could go some ways towards ensuring that KoEM isn't as necessary for the primary/solo healing shaman.  What I'm thinking is that you change KoEM to only apply its bonus to HOT spells and not direct healing.  Then, you buff up the direct healing spells (really just Hand of Aivelu as of now) to compensate.  Still leaves KoEM as a powerful bonus and a cool mechanic, but it makes the bonus less effective the more you focus on primairly healing.


    This post was edited by zoltar at February 23, 2019 12:23 PM PST
    • 1322 posts
    February 23, 2019 12:17 PM PST

    KoEM sounds more a small bonus when you got time to toss a few debuffs than a design to play around for maximum efficiency. It helps hindering the cast and cost of thoses by offering you more healing power afterwards.

    • 265 posts
    February 23, 2019 12:29 PM PST

    The rez mechanic is probably the #1 concern I have for shaman.  OTOH, I really like the amount of utility and flexibility the class has.  I like the way the different healing spells interact with one another.  I like the pet, and I'm very interested to see what all it can do.  I'm digging the thematic elements of the shaman, especially the time aspect.  

    • 1288 posts
    February 24, 2019 8:12 AM PST

    zoltar said:

    Vandraad said:

    -Keeper of the Elemental Masteries. Not thrilled that we need to keep a bunch of extra resists up on someone just so our heals are at their best.  Kinda pointless to keep a cold resist buff up when you're in a lava/fire dungeon just so you don't miss out on X% of healing power.

    First off, note that KoEM only works with offensive spells, i.e. debuffs, DOT's, etc.  Buffs won't count towards the % healing bonuses. 

    You are correct, I read 'offensive target' as 'defensive target'.  Woops!

    That said, the question is still "WTF do DoTs have to do with healing?"  Why tie one to the other?  If the % increase is too small, then the effect is not worth mana IF maximizing healing is your desired outcome.  If the % increase is substantial, then the Shaman is basically forced to expend mana on DoTs just to make sure its heals are at their best.  So again, WTF do DoTs have to do with Healing?

    • 265 posts
    February 24, 2019 10:15 AM PST

    Vandraad said:

    zoltar said:

    Vandraad said:

    -Keeper of the Elemental Masteries. Not thrilled that we need to keep a bunch of extra resists up on someone just so our heals are at their best.  Kinda pointless to keep a cold resist buff up when you're in a lava/fire dungeon just so you don't miss out on X% of healing power.

    First off, note that KoEM only works with offensive spells, i.e. debuffs, DOT's, etc.  Buffs won't count towards the % healing bonuses. 

    If the % increase is too small, then the effect is not worth mana IF maximizing healing is your desired outcome. 

    Exactly.  That is the point.  It was never meant to be something that you use specifically for the boost your healing-- at least not as a general rule.  But the great thing about KoEM is that it gives you options for dealing with various situations and rewards making good strategic decisions.  It gives you reasons to cast more dots and debuffs without making it an obligation.  Say there's an add that needs to be burned down as part of a fight.  Well, with KoEM I'm more likely to spend the mana on a couple of DOTs knowing that in addition to helping kill the mob faster it's also going to boost my healing.  Maybe there's a burst damage phase that I prep for by getting a few extra stacks of KoEM because I'm more concerned with HPS than efficiency.  Or maybe your group comp makes the debuff associated with a particular DOT effect especially rewarding, and the KoEM bonus helps justify spending the mana on that DOT.  Then you have your standard phases where you don't bother with KoEM because that's the more efficient way to heal and HPS isn't a problem.  

    You should embrace all the nuance that KoEM adds to Shaman healing.  It's not a binary choice between mandatory and useless. 


    This post was edited by zoltar at February 24, 2019 10:16 AM PST
    • 10 posts
    February 24, 2019 12:20 PM PST

    Vandraad said:

    zoltar said:

    Vandraad said:

    -Keeper of the Elemental Masteries. Not thrilled that we need to keep a bunch of extra resists up on someone just so our heals are at their best.  Kinda pointless to keep a cold resist buff up when you're in a lava/fire dungeon just so you don't miss out on X% of healing power.

    First off, note that KoEM only works with offensive spells, i.e. debuffs, DOT's, etc.  Buffs won't count towards the % healing bonuses. 

    You are correct, I read 'offensive target' as 'defensive target'.  Woops!

    That said, the question is still "WTF do DoTs have to do with healing?"  Why tie one to the other?  If the % increase is too small, then the effect is not worth mana IF maximizing healing is your desired outcome.  If the % increase is substantial, then the Shaman is basically forced to expend mana on DoTs just to make sure its heals are at their best.  So again, WTF do DoTs have to do with Healing?

     

    The debuffs are actually looking like they're to be an important part of healing for the Shaman. Not because of the healing buff they give, but rather because the effects they produce will drastically reduce the incomming damage on the tank and party. There are slows, damage reductions, stat debuffs, a spell that turns normal hits into glancing blows. They also have damage over time components but thats not really the point of those spells. All of that will add up and is part of the class healer identity the Shaman was designed around. The bonus to heals from casting those dots/debuffs is really just icing on the cake since youre going to want to drop those debuffs on most mobs your party is fighting anyway.

    • 265 posts
    February 24, 2019 1:24 PM PST

    There are slows, damage reductions, stat debuffs, a spell that turns normal hits into glancing blows. 

    It's really just two spells that provide any sort of damage reduction debuff to mobs.  Shackle of the Dust Eater (Str/Stam/Resource gen) and Scorched Fog (Melee Slow/glancing blow).  The rest of them are focused on offense.  The attack slow will likely be an important debuff (requires 2 casts: Wreath of Coals DOT > Scorched Fog slow).  I'm not sure how important the Str/Stam/Resource generation debuff will be for a shaman that's focused on healing.  My best guess is that it's something you'll use in raids and possibly against some bosses or very dangerous mobs, but you won't be using it generally.   

    • 1288 posts
    February 25, 2019 9:18 AM PST

    Serillen said:

    The debuffs are actually looking like they're to be an important part of healing for the Shaman. Not because of the healing buff they give, but rather because the effects they produce will drastically reduce the incomming damage on the tank and party. There are slows, damage reductions, stat debuffs, a spell that turns normal hits into glancing blows.

    Slow will be a primary tool of the shaman, but I do not think the same of the other debuffs.  Slow provides a very measurable decrease in incoming DPS becuase its application is independent of any variables. It slows every single swing by 10% thus a weapon with a 20 delay now because a 22 delay.  Scorched Fog has a chance to change a direct blow to a glancing blow meaning there is only a probability that a given strike will be changed.  Statistically, even with the debuff active, no strikes could be altered just as it is possible every strike could be altered.  So while you can rely upon Slow to recude incoming DPS by 10%, you can't say the same for other debuffs.

    So if the probability of Scorched Fog is too low such that the effect is unnoticeable, then the mana used to cast the spell is wasted.  This is true for any debuff that works off probabilities.  Even debuffs for STR, AGI or DEX could be quite worthless if the effect from those stats is probabilistic.  If you have an abilitie, like Riposte for example, that is affected by Agility such that a higher agility means a greater chance that Riposte activates, reducing AGI by some number doesn't guarantee that the target will present with any reduced changes for Riposte to activate.  If the change for Riposte to activete is already low without an Agility debuff (say 10% chance per incoming attack), without a very significant debuff to Agility the actually change for a Riposte activation will be immeasurable.

    So instead of debuffing stats, you need to directly debuff the abilility if you want any noticeable outcome.  But that then means you need something like Riposte to have a quite high default probability so that a debuff can have a discernable effect.  Looking at the descriptions in the class reveal I do not believe, at this time, that debuffs outside of Slow will be worth casting.

    Interestingly enough, the opposite also holds true in that Haste will be the primary melee buff of the Shaman as it too is a guaranteed effect. A 10% haste turns that 20 delay into an 18 delay while a buff to AGI has no guarantee that any ability using AGI will actually activate.

    • 265 posts
    February 25, 2019 7:27 PM PST

    Vandraad said:

    So if the probability of Scorched Fog is too low such that the effect is unnoticeable, then the mana used to cast the spell is wasted.  This is true for any debuff that works off probabilities.  Even debuffs for STR, AGI or DEX could be quite worthless if the effect from those stats is probabilistic.  

     

    You do realize that Scorched Fog is the slow AND the glancing blow debuff, right?  They are the same spell.  Also, I disagree about probabilistic effects.  All else being equal, I would take a 10% slow over a 10% chance to miss debuff even though they work out to be the same net reduction in damage.  However that doesn't mean that a 10% miss chance debuff woud not be worth casting.  The RNG factor is a secondary concern compared to the expected benefit/cost.  The exception would be when the RNG is too extreme. 

    • 1288 posts
    February 26, 2019 7:19 AM PST

    zoltar said:

    You do realize that Scorched Fog is the slow AND the glancing blow debuff, right?  They are the same spell.  Also, I disagree about probabilistic effects.  All else being equal, I would take a 10% slow over a 10% chance to miss debuff even though they work out to be the same net reduction in damage.  However that doesn't mean that a 10% miss chance debuff woud not be worth casting.  The RNG factor is a secondary concern compared to the expected benefit/cost.  The exception would be when the RNG is too extreme. 

    I do know they are part of the same spell just that Slow is a far more useful and noticeable component than the glancing blow part.

    RNG has been a hot topic quite a few times over the last few years as it has some good but also quite a few very bad effects.

    EDIT: Actually a 10% miss chance debuff will NOT equate to almost exactly 10% reduction in incoming damage while a 10% slow will.  The key word is 'chance' and that is why it is not a guaranteed 10% reduction.  While it could result in a greater than 10% reduction the more likely outcome is a far less than 10% reduction.

    Lets say you're swinging against a target and you have a 100% hit probability and that the target has no defensive skills or mitigation.  Your weapon speed lets you swing 1 time every second and you will do 10 damage per hit every time.  In 20 seconds you will do 200 damage.  If you are then subject to a 10% slow, you will now swing every 1.1 seconds and over those same 20 seconds you will now do only 181 damage. Not quite but very close to 10%. Over 60 seconds your damage goes from 600 down to 545.

    Now lets say that you have a baseline chance of missing (based on any defensive factions like AC, dodge, parry, etc) of 20%.  I just ran a script that looked at 100 sets of 100 swings where you start with an 80& chance to hit, and swings where a 10% debuff was applied multiplicatively (20%*10%=22%)and swings where the debuff was applied additively (20%+10%=30%) and in only 3 sets did the damage reduction equal or exceed 10% from the baseline.  So 3% of the time did the damage of a 10% hit chance debuff, regardless of how it is applied, resulted in at least or more than a 10% damage reduction.

    How percentages are applied is hugely important.  Are they applied multiplicatively, that meaning when you have a 50% chance of something happening and you buff it by 10% it is now a 55% probability.  If additive that 50% becomes 60%.  Same goes for a debuff but replace additive with subtractive.

    So here's the thing:  If your overall base chance of an occurrance is already low and the buff/debuff percentage is also low, regardless of the application being multiplicative or additive/subtractive the overall effect is negligible.  If, however, the overall base chance is high and the buff/debuff percentage is low you get the same outcome.  Only when you have a high base probability and a high buff/debuff percentage applied additively/subtractively will you then begin to notice a difference. 


    This post was edited by Vandraad at February 26, 2019 8:32 AM PST
    • 1322 posts
    February 26, 2019 12:28 PM PST

    @Vandraad

    Stat debuffs can also be OP as much as they can be underperforming, depending on how the game is coded. An example would be wow where stacking AP debuffs would reduce bosses damage output around ~15% during Vanilla/BC era even if they where minimal in term of damage decrease on player, simply because bosses had low AP and a heavy multiplicator to it's effects.

    On the same side, vindication was useless in the very same era, as bosses had no stats to affect and reduce.

     

    The same can be said about Pantheon, it can be great or risible but I doubt they would base a class on it by making it useless. However keep in mind that slows can be as much fantastic (a 20% slow was an effective 20% damage done reduction to many standart mobs that had no special strike) than ineffective is most of the mob's damage comes out of cooldowned abilities. If autoswing represent only 30% of their output, then slowing by 20% will only be a 6% overall damage reduction while stat debuffs might (but not to be sure) work on thoses special abilities.

    It's not much more a sure card to play to slow than to debuff, both beeing vulnerable to terrible or irregular designs.

    • 1288 posts
    February 26, 2019 1:43 PM PST

    MauvaisOeil said:

    @Vandraad

    Stat debuffs can also be OP as much as they can be underperforming, depending on how the game is coded. An example would be wow where stacking AP debuffs would reduce bosses damage output around ~15% during Vanilla/BC era even if they where minimal in term of damage decrease on player, simply because bosses had low AP and a heavy multiplicator to it's effects.

    It's not much more a sure card to play to slow than to debuff, both beeing vulnerable to terrible or irregular designs.

    Oh, very much agreed about stat debuffs (or stat buffs for that matter) having the possibility of being overpowered and thus making some portion of content trivial. 

    And just so I'm clear, nothing I've seen in streams so far, or any posts I've made that are critical of any mechanics or design decisions really gives me any significant concern that the Shaman will not be a class I will throughly enjoy.

    • 265 posts
    February 26, 2019 1:58 PM PST
    Vandraad said:
    Now lets say that you have a baseline chance of missing (based on any defensive factions like AC, dodge, parry, etc) of 20%. I just ran a script that looked at 100 sets of 100 swings where you start with an 80& chance to hit, and swings where a 10% debuff was applied multiplicatively (20%*10%=22%)and swings where the debuff was applied additively (20%+10%=30%) and in only 3 sets did the damage reduction equal or exceed 10% from the baseline. So 3% of the time did the damage of a 10% hit chance debuff, regardless of how it is applied, resulted in at least or more than a 10% damage reduction.
    How percentages are applied is hugely important. Are they applied multiplicatively, that meaning when you have a 50% chance of something happening and you buff it by 10% it is now a 55% probability. If additive that 50% becomes 60%. Same goes for a debuff but replace additive with subtractive.
    So here's the thing: If your overall base chance of an occurrance is already low and the buff/debuff percentage is also low, regardless of the application being multiplicative or additive/subtractive the overall effect is negligible. If, however, the overall base chance is high and the buff/debuff percentage is low you get the same outcome. Only when you have a high base probability and a high buff/debuff percentage applied additively/subtractively will you then begin to notice a difference.

    Nah, you're definitely doing something wrong. You're right that how you apply the 10% miss chance is important. I'm assuming additively for reasons I'll explain later. But your overall conclusions and data about RNG effects is wildly inaccurate. Here's the data I got comparing a 10% slow @ 80% cance to hit versus no slow but with an additional 10% miss chance (70% chance to hit). I did 10k trials of 100 swings:

    Damage reduction exceeded 10% of expected base damage (80% hit, 0% slow) on 5354 trials out of 10000
    Damage reduction exceeded slow (80% hit, 10% slow) on 7055 trials out of 10000
    Net Percent Damage reduction from hit debuff (70% hit, 0% slow): 30.01
    Net Percent Damage reduction from slow debuff (80% hit, 10% slow): 27.93

    A 10% miss chance debuff calculated additively is not at all negligible regardless of what the base miss chance is. In fact, the high the base miss chance goes, the more effective the 10% becomes in terms of ADDITIONAL reduction to damage. A simply hypothetical shows why this is the case. Consider an example where it's extremely hard to hit an enemy. If your base-hit rate is only 10% (i.e. miss chance is 90%) then adding 10% to that miss rate gives you a 100% miss rate. If you were doing 10 DPS before the debuff, you're now doing 0 DPS. You lost 100% of your CURRENT dps from that 10% hit debuff (10% compared to . This is why you see the 10% miss chance debuff stacked with a 20% base miss chance yield a net damage reduction of 30% (compared to 100% hit rate) and why it outperforms the slow on average. The slow is multiplicative.
    Another thing to consider is how slows are usually calculated. In most games, they are innately multiplicative because the slow works as a factor that swing time is multiplied by. So a 100% slow usually means it takes 2x as long to swing, and there's no actual point where your DPS is stopped completely. However, if you wanted to treat it more like the hit debuff, you could treat it as a fractional multiplier to the attacks per second. So a 25% slow would be a 0.75 multiplier to APS. In this way, if you stacked two additive 50% slows, you would reach 100% slowed and completely stop DPS.
    The last paragraph you wrote ONLY applies to multiplicative effects. If the factor is applied additively then it has a fixed effect (relative to a base case). If it's multiplicative then the other factors (or base multiplier) will scale the effect up or down.
    • 265 posts
    February 26, 2019 2:07 PM PST
    One thing I got wrong earlier was how the slow requires the fire dot or another fire bane to set it up. I thought the wording "amplify another fire bane" implied that you couldn't cast the slow without another fire bane applied previously. However from the in-game tooltip, it seems that the fire bane on target reduces the resist chance for the slow debuffs. So it may not be required.
    • 1288 posts
    February 26, 2019 2:41 PM PST

    zoltar said: One thing I got wrong earlier was how the slow requires the fire dot or another fire bane to set it up. I thought the wording "amplify another fire bane" implied that you couldn't cast the slow without another fire bane applied previously. However from the in-game tooltip, it seems that the fire bane on target reduces the resist chance for the slow debuffs. So it may not be required.

    One thing we are both leaving out, or at least I wasn't taking into consideration, was all the non auto-attack attacks.  What I was looking at only the auto-attack swing speed.  It is clear from the streams that while auto-attack is in the game it is not the primary DPS output.  That will come from the player-triggered abilities.  How much debuffs/buffs affect those could be quite difficult to calculate.

    All that said, I unfortunately pushed this thread way off topic and I apologize for that.