So I was browsing reddit and I came upon some VERY worrying comments by Kilsin from a bit over a month ago.
https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/comments/abj08h/pantheon_rise_of_the_fallen_is_shaping_really_nice/ed0m9f6
"It is our intention to have a subscription model, but we are still deciding on the best one for our game.
It's true that we hate cash shops for pay to win items as much as most gamers"
"I don't know the answer to that yet mate, we don't want to sell any pay to win or game changing items that give a player an advantage over another player but as for cosmetics, i'm not sure.
The team is very much aware of our communities stance on cash shops so we will take that into account when we look at finding the best ways to earn revenue to support our game for many years to come and pick the best one for all involved."
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This goes against what the FAQ states. The FAQ states:
"We are considering either using the traditional subscription based model or a model where the player buys the game and then has the option of purchasing mini-expansions or ‘modules’ after launch. Either way, the game’s world will continue to expand, more content will be added, as well as new features and mechanics. Visionary Realms strongly believes that the revenue model of an MMO needs to match the game’s target audience. Because of this, Pantheon will not be ‘freemium’ or have ‘cash shops’ -- building your character and advancing in-game will be based on time invested and tactics used, not on how much money the player has in real life."
Most people have been under the impression that there would not be a cash shop, but they now are seeming to include that as a possibility. If there is a cash shop (even if it's cosmetic only) then I want nothing to do with the game and I will feel like I have been scammed. If there is a cash shop included in Pantheon, it will have been a bait and switch of epic proportions.
Edit: This forum software is complete trash. The forum did not post the majority of my post and I can't get it to format things correctly.
WarKnight said: I'm not seeing where they are considering a cash shop?? One quote specifically states: "Pantheon will not be ‘freemium’ or have ‘cash shops’".That is from the FAQ (which has not been updated in a long time) not Kilsin's recent comments.
I already posted this in the opening post. Go to this link.
https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/comments/abj08h/pantheon_rise_of_the_fallen_is_shaping_really_nice/ed0m9f6/
kreed99 said: Pay to win means potions and other items that help with leveling. Cosmetic items are not something that you gain levels by buying. If they can offer 1000 hairstyles in a cash shop/salon setting.... yes please.I understand what pay to win means. I am against all cash shops of any sort, be it pay to win, cosmetic, or a combination of the two. Especially when you are paying a monthly fee. I want everything to be earned in-game. That is what drew me to the project in the first place. That is why I pledged to the project. If they include a cash shop, I want my money back.
Kilsin as the community manager is not going to rule out a potential revenue source, until the FAQ changes, or any official release is given to the contrary - I wouldn't worry about the sky falling yet. Many things over the years said in writing by developers can be parsed word by word and think "chicken little" when clarification was later given as they were speaking more off the cuff. Feel free to raise the issue obviously, this website actually had a cash shop when it was first transitioned to after the failed Kickstarter. And I and other community members raised extreme issue with it and it was removed. So, as of today, the only proof I have to the FAQ claim is them actually removing a cash shop versus implementing one.
So, unless you see an official annoucement, don't panic yet. As an aside, I know many here have been asking for more developer posting/involvement. Unfortunately, this is one of the reasons it doesn't occur. As those who are anxiously awaiting (rightfully so) see any information, it is parsed word by word - good or bad.
Reichsritter said:I already posted this in the opening post. Go to this link.
https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/comments/abj08h/pantheon_rise_of_the_fallen_is_shaping_really_nice/ed0m9f6/
Ah gotcha. yes I completely agree. 100% against any sort of cash shop.
With that said I want VR to make as much money as possible for their hard work and building this game. They deserve it.
I would rather just pay an extra few dollars per month if it means we could avoid a cash shop.
But maybe I'm missing some benefit?
Raidan said:Unfortunately, this is one of the reasons it doesn't occur. As those who are anxiously awaiting (rightfully so) see any information, it is parsed word by word - good or bad.
It's really easy to stick with what the FAQ says. That there will not be a cash shop of any sort. But he specifically mentioned that they are against having a pay to win cash shop, and that he doesn't know if a cosmetic cash shop will be included or not. I didn't have to read between the lines or deeply parse his post to figure out the meaning. It's right there. They could be concrete about the issue, that they are against all cash shops (like they are in the FAQ) but they aren't. This alone is a worrying sign to me, but I have nothing else to say on the topic unless we get an official comment on it.
WarKnight said:Visionary Realms is a corporation. They want to make as much money as possible. There is no benefit to the players being considerd when it comes to cash shops. The only benefit is to line their pocket books with more money. The only thing that may prevent a cash shop being implemented is the community raising hell about it every time the topic comes up, both before the game actually launches and after it launches (many games include a cash shop later down the line so the community must always be vigilent). I am completely in support of the monthly subscriptions + expansions model with no cash shops whatsoever.Reichsritter said:I already posted this in the opening post. Go to this link.
https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/comments/abj08h/pantheon_rise_of_the_fallen_is_shaping_really_nice/ed0m9f6/
Ah gotcha. yes I completely agree. 100% against any sort of cash shop.
With that said I want VR to make as much money as possible for their hard work and building this game. They deserve it.
I would rather just pay an extra few dollars per month if it means we could avoid a cash shop.
But maybe I'm missing some benefit?
kreed99 said: The only reason to make cosmetic items a cash shop item is specifically to pay for the artists time in making the items. They don’t impact gameplay and its a good revenue source. As long as cosmetics are controlled by the dev team and they dont divert into rediculousness than it should be fine. I understand the desire to avoid cash shops, but i feel like hairstyles are something that people can get behind. How many people IRL pay for haircuts and such? If we can get some serious styles for a cost, so be it....This is the last place I ever expected to see someone speaking in favor of implementing a cash shop. But, here it is. Wow. I am absolutely shocked. Once you implement a cash shop, the game is irrevocably changed. Things will never stay "controlled" for long, and to me "controlled" means never implementing a cash shop in the first place. I want awesome looking cosmetics to be EARNED in game. Actually earning the things you have is part of why I love the MMORPG genre. It is part of what makes it feel like another world, instead of being able to pay for random cool looking stuff with real world money. And yes I understand how pledging works. I know I can't get a refund if they end up implementing a cash shop, but it still doesn't shake the desire.
Reichsritter said:kreed99 said: The only reason to make cosmetic items a cash shop item is specifically to pay for the artists time in making the items. They don’t impact gameplay and its a good revenue source. As long as cosmetics are controlled by the dev team and they dont divert into rediculousness than it should be fine. I understand the desire to avoid cash shops, but i feel like hairstyles are something that people can get behind. How many people IRL pay for haircuts and such? If we can get some serious styles for a cost, so be it....This is the last place I ever expected to see someone speaking in favor of implementing a cash shop. But, here it is. Wow. I am absolutely shocked. Once you implement a cash shop, the game is irrevocably changed. Things will never stay "controlled" for long, and to me "controlled" means never implementing a cash shop in the first place. I want awesome looking cosmetics to be EARNED in game. Actually earning the things you have is part of why I love the MMORPG genre. It is part of what makes it feel like another world, instead of being able to pay for random cool looking stuff with real world money. And yes I understand how pledging works. I know I can't get a refund if they end up implementing a cash shop, but it still doesn't shake the desire.
Yeah this post is pretty much 100% spot on. Where do you draw the line between cash shop cosmetics and hard earned gear that has cosmetic appeal as part of its value? Some of the stuff from EQ was about the look, like Rubicite, etc, not the stats per se. Part of what made EQ great was being able to see the stuff people had or earned and that is cosmetic at its heart. I do not want the line between cash paid and earned in game blurred AT ALL, because as stated, once you breach that dam at all, it is just a matter of time despite what anyone says or thinks. I do not want a system where you see a character and think, oh that guy looks cool because he has that awesome sword from dungeon X, and then see another character and think, that guy looks cool because he has the $5 hairstyle and the $8 robe with no stats that looks awesome. ABSOLUTELY NO IN GAME ITEMS, CURRENCY, CLOTHES, HAIR, FACES, ANYTHING AT ALL BOUGHT WITH REAL CASH. I will gladly pay $20 a month, but I want GMs in game, quality service and enforcement of good play rules and no cash shops.
What if the cash shop has T-shirts, Jackets, Hoodies, Hats, . Plushies. Mice/Desktop Pads . Cloth Maps.
cosmetics could be very minimal, like hair styles/colors, or pets like a cat or dog. A special color for a mount (like maybe be able to buy a Zebra pattern)
Maybe even Special Wallpapers sets for phone, tablet, desktop.
Extra character slots (maybe 2 or 3 or 4 for free, pay for more)
Maybe a .99 phone/tablet App that lets you see guild chat, or interact with the game in various ways.
never ever ever have anything like Krono, game tokens, exp pots, etc. Earn your gold, gear and levels. no free rides.
It wasn't long ago when Brad said "-- for me the way to create a profitable venture is by creating excellent entertainment, experiences, and value for our players -- do that, and everything else falls into place." This was on a different thread where PLEX was being discussed. Similar feedback was voiced and he squashed the idea without hesitation and without mercy. I do have to agree with Reich in saying that I would be strongly opposed to a cash shop, even if it's limited to cosmetics. Players need to earn their accomplishments in-game, and that includes something as simple as having an improved "appearance." Let's consider this excerpt from the "Armor 101" section of the May 2018 Newsletter:
"What are the aesthetics of gear progression like? Will you be able to tell roughly how high level someone is just by looking at them?
Chris: We want players to feel a genuine sense of rags to riches in Pantheon. And so we want to be thoughtful about how quickly we roll out higher tier armors. So yes, you should be able to tell how high level someone is just by looking at them. That's the goal.
I also want to make an important point that while we are creating these Armors in sets, this doesn't mean everyone will always be in a matching set of armor. Quite the contrary I would expect. Putting together a full, matching set of armor will be a rarer accomplishment. And just because pieces may look the same, doesn't mean each piece is part of the same "set". I'll speak more on that later.
At lower levels, it will be the norm to see players in more of a mismatched ensemble of gear, since they're using whatever they can get their hands on without the luxury of going after specific pieces beyond their level range. And so part of the rags to riches equation will be seeing higher levels players getting closer to a matching set look."
Genuine sense of rags to riches. Rarer accomplishments. That's the goal. This stuff clearly matters to us as players and that's why so many of us have placed absolute faith and trust into VR. They are more than just a development team. Their team members are the same kind of orphaned gamers that many of us are. Allowing players to bust out their wallet and bypass the "rags to riches" aspect of character development would run directly counter to what this game stands for. I wouldn't say something like that lightly. Kilsin mentioned that he wasn't sure of the exact plan regarding cosmetic gear and to be honest, I think that's fair. It's really difficult to guarantee pretty much anything at this stage of development. He acknowledged that VR is aware of the communities stance on cash shops and that it would be taken into account in the future.
I appreciate you starting this thread Reich because it goes to show how serious folks really are when it comes to this topic. I have seen a decent amount of talk on Discord recently where some people are suggesting that they would be fine with a cash shop. It wouldn't hurt anything if it's just cosmetics, they say. VR could really use the money, they say. It's fine for them to say that just like it's fine for someone to start a thread right here on the forum and voice their malcontent. This really is one of those non-negotiable things for some people, possibly many or most. So again, I appreciate you starting this thread Reich. I agree with your assessment and think it's important to remind ourselves now and then what truly matters to us.
I'm highly confident that we won't be seeing cosmetic gear sold for cash in this game. At the same time, it would be irresponsible of VR to not consider every option available to them to ensure that their company is successful. They seem to have the proper mindset from what I have seen. They are completely focused on creating excellent entertainment, experiences, and value for us customers. They have real conviction to do things the right way and I trust that they will deliver. As long as they continue to stay focused on the big picture this game is going to be amazing and everything else will fall into place. I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt on that and I hope others feel the same way. Pantheon is going to be the game that brings life back to this genre. Mark my words.
From Feb. Newsletter:
4) What is your favorite system, mechanic or feature so far in Pantheon?
A) Hard to say since much still remains to be fleshed out. Probably the hope of a business model that will rely heavily on subscriptions and not having an in-game store. Aaaarghhhh, I hate in-game stores. Pay-to-play, whatever the details of the model, offers huge advantages to the players over free play. Most free players are as nice and as mature as any subscribers but, oh, the outliers that can get in with no investment and then have their fun trolling and being unpleasant. Consequences don't matter to them since they haven't paid a penny — or Euro — or other local currency. All Gods of Terminus save me from free play.
Elddar said:Just to make it clear for those who are reading that as an isolated unit — that was an interview of a community member, not a dev. It really just goes to show how many of us are excited about the idea of playing an MMO without any cash shop whatsoever.From Feb. Newsletter:
4) What is your favorite system, mechanic or feature so far in Pantheon?
A) Hard to say since much still remains to be fleshed out. Probably the hope of a business model that will rely heavily on subscriptions and not having an in-game store. Aaaarghhhh, I hate in-game stores. Pay-to-play, whatever the details of the model, offers huge advantages to the players over free play. Most free players are as nice and as mature as any subscribers but, oh, the outliers that can get in with no investment and then have their fun trolling and being unpleasant. Consequences don't matter to them since they haven't paid a penny — or Euro — or other local currency. All Gods of Terminus save me from free play.
I, too, would be horrified to see a cash shop, even if it were limited to cosmetics. And I, too, would gladly pay a bit more for a subscription if it would keep cash shops out of the game entirely.
I have moved this to Off-Topic as it is not General Pantheon information.
We do not have any cash shops. We closed our cash shop down. We have no plans to open any future cash shops.
My reasoning behind saying "I don't know" was because I am the Community and Web Manager, not a Director, Producer or anyone else who has input and knowledge of these things. I am but a simple CM that is passionate about this game, and it's a community, and I don't like making statements without having evidence or facts to support them. Hence, I can't predict the future, I don't have that information, and as such, I was being honest and said that I don't know.
If my words are going to be turned into screams of outrage and used as a base to start threads of rallied anger against any given misunderstanding, I will refrain from saying anything in future!
I am closing this down as it is against the guidelines to actively incite unrest, especially on a null topic like this.