Forums » The Monk

Monk - State of the class (PA4) & Beyond

    • 148 posts
    February 3, 2019 9:58 PM PST

    Preface: This is going off the class page, stream footage of PA4, and all other forum posts/videos/information I have gathered. I have not played the game, as I am quietly (not so quietly) awaiting my Alpha pledge access.

    Class resources: Chakra (Chi) and Endurance

    Chi is your spender, while Endurance is your builder. This is semi-similar to WoW's Rogue class but with 2 resource pools.

    Pros: Easy to understand - Easy to use - Easy to Save/Burn resources

    Cons: Creates button mashing (personally doesn't bother me that much), Creates a preferred Rotation, Limits flexibility

    DPS Role: This is the main role of the monk, they need to be close to Rogues in damage but hopefully have a skill ceiling to be equal and/or better (now the same for Rogues to have a skill ceiling to be the best, or not as good etc). Not a ton to say about this role, other than the Abilities need to fit the monk theme, while not creating a bloat of the skills for no reason. If there is Kick, Round Kick, Back Kick, Flying Kick, Dragon Kick, etc - they need to all be there for a reason or just be flat out (obvious) upgrades. What we don't want are the EQ skills where you aren't sure without a ton of parsing which Punch you should be using (Eagle Strike, Dragon Punch, Tiger Claw, etc).

    Offtank Role & Self Healing: What we have been told here (by Joppa in a stream) is that monk will basically exist in this role in 'burst' periods. Defensive cooldowns (avoidance and AC mitigation most likely) along with the self healing abilities. This is similar to the EQ monk, with their elite level of avoidance and the Mend ability. However, in Pantheon it looks like you are forced to choose DPS or Offtank when these periods happen. This isn't completly bad, but it severly limits the flexibility of the class. This is caused by the resource system, and how the self heals and defensive abilities use the same resource pool as your DPS-style skills. By doing this, the monk is either forced to save all the time (just in case) or not be able to tank at the right time. This seems fairly limiting, assuming the content will be hard enough for the monk to use these type of skills (and not just leave them in the spellbook).

    In my opinion, having build/spend for DPS works great, however, the main offtanking utilities (and healing) should be moved away from chakra/endurance and just put on separate cooldowns. This will create freedom within the class, and not bog you down just in case that 'oh $&#%' moment never comes. For example, if you are doing damage and an AE goes off - rather than saving your self heal just in case you are going to need to taunt, you could pop it to save your healer some mana, all without dropping any damage from spending endurance/chakra to do so. All the while, you still have other cooldowns up for when you could/need to taunt.

    Utility: The main utility here is Feign Death, but there are also stuns and spell interrupts. Not just for the monk, but across the whole game - I hope interrupts are not a % chance to work. This adds an unwanted slot machine to normal mechanics and a false sense of difficulty. Stuns - I understand if a creature is immune or resists. The resources on these (stun/interrupt) type of abilities work fine on or off of the main class resources as they will most likely have a cooldown anyway. As for FD, it is important for it to work smoothly, by this I mean - if I am running and I hit FD, it should work. I shouldn't have to make sure I am stopped as this reminds me of - "You have moved and are no longed feign death." The ability in general is awesome, I just want it to stay that way.

    TLDR;

    In closing, I think the resource system and management is okay but it leads to a faster style of gameplay. For the offtank role and self healing utility of the class to work, I believe they need to be transitioned away from the DPS resources and have their own independent cooldown. Feign Death is awesome, please keep/make it awesome.

     

    • 14 posts
    February 3, 2019 10:17 PM PST

    The resource management of the monk thus far when it comes to dps is very familiar coming from a longtime WoW warrior. It is definitely going to limit the monk to a cookie cutter dps rotation, probably with filler buttons (think havoc demon hunter in WoW). Which isn’t really a bad thing imo, and could be a nice change of pace compared to other, slower classes we’ve seen.

    I agree with your points on defensive cooldowns especially when comparing it to other mmos, defensives tied to GCDs and resources tend to feel bad and give you less margin for error. Counter to that, the chain puller in me sees some fun that could come with the intentional pooling of resource during a fight knowing that I need to split a tough room next pull so I leave x resource left in the tank to utilize some of those off tank cooldowns to get things split off and to the group in a timely fashion.

    Finally, FD rocks as EQs iteration and catches a ton of flak because of its power... I can’t say the complaints are totally lacking foundation and could see something along the lines of FD being a channeled ability, instead of an indefinite state or mob behaviors that act as soft nerfs to some of the cheese that FD enables.


    This post was edited by Ghastlee at February 3, 2019 10:19 PM PST
    • 148 posts
    February 3, 2019 10:33 PM PST

    Ghastlee said:

    I agree with your points on defensive cooldowns especially when comparing it to other mmos, defensives tied to GCDs and resources tend to feel bad and give you less margin for error. Counter to that, the chain puller in me sees some fun that could come with the intentional pooling of resource during a fight knowing that I need to split a tough room next pull so I leave x resource left in the tank to utilize some of those off tank cooldowns to get things split off and to the group in a timely fashion.

     

    I agree that when a specific situation like that occurs it can feel OP and awesome. However, all the other times it is clunky and/or #FeelsBadMan. Cooldowns still allow you to do the above, but just not like a back-to-back-to-back resource burn would. I think we both would rather have a new, shiny, monk class feel - without the clunk!

    • 3 posts
    February 4, 2019 6:54 PM PST

    Fragile said:

    DPS Role: This is the main role of the monk, they need to be close to Rogues in damage but hopefully have a skill ceiling to be equal and/or better.

    TLDR;

    In closing, I think the resource system and management is okay but it leads to a faster style of gameplay. For the offtank role and self healing utility of the class to work, I believe they need to be transitioned away from the DPS resources and have their own independent cooldown. Feign Death is awesome, please keep/make it awesome.

     

    First I want to say that I have raided in top WoW progression guilds and that I am excited to main a monk when Pantheon finally comes, but with that being said there are a couple of reasons why transitioning the Monk's defensive cooldowns to an independent system would be a generally bad idea imo. You say you want the monks dps to rival a rogues, which it should, given the right circumstances, but if a monk does not have to sacrifice dps in order to off-tank at any given notice, why bring a rogue? for smoke and mirrors or trap detection, maybe for their length of rope ability? I know I wouldn't. I would fill that melee dps slot with a monk, and use an enchanter for my CC.

    The way I see monks, while competitive on dps, perhaps one of their greatest advantages is that they should be generally tankier than your average dps class, which should provide the healer with an easier time, perhaps so much so that the healer can dps as well, adding to your party's overall damage. Will defensive abilities using the same resource as offensive abilities limit flexibility in the class? Perhaps, but this also means the skill cap for this particular class will be so much higher, which I am excited for. Knowing when to conserve energy because you know you are in a dangerous area that has a lot of patrols will be part of our resource management. Coming from WoW, I am excited to see that dps classes in general will require more thought, and most importantly, it won't be all amount how much damage you do compared to another class. I think that these defining features (off-tanking Monks) are what is going to make this game great, but that's just my 2 cents :P 

    • 148 posts
    February 4, 2019 9:01 PM PST

    @Varashar

    As I said, I think Rogue should be higher than monk damage if both players are of equal skill - plus their own utility the rogue brings (don't forget the Ropes). I see why you think that it adds a potential skill cap to the class, however, if the defensive abilities already have a cooldown and can't be spammed instead of dps abilities -  you end up spending the recources you built up on defensive for that burst. I think thats where some of the disconnect comes in to play, is the fact these are burst abilities meaning you can't just start using a defensive rotation over a dps one.

    It would make sense though, if you could weave back and forth between defensive or dps skills (and/or resources) - I think that would kind of redesign the class. It would also make sense to have the class resources be tied in this way. However, how it works now is that you are doing some sick damage the you get and add - pop taunt (uses resource) then pop defensive cd (uses resource) and now you are out of resources and have 1 mob on you. Then you start building more chakra via dps abilities to then maybe pop a self heal (that uses all the resource you built from dps builders and doing damage)..the main tank then picks it back up and you just spent 2 dps cycles on doing lower damage and maybe helping control an add. To me this seems super clunky, and doesn't make for flawless transitions - yeah maybe it adds to a skill cap knowing when you should spend resource on a defensive or offensive ability - but I am saying you shouldn't need to choose - thus separate CD's suggestion.

    I think the real skill cap should come from knowing which damage abilities to use and when, when you to stun or interrupt npc's, what defensive abilities to use and when, how to pull using feign death, when to drop threat using feing death, when to tank something, when not to tank something, and helping your group/cc classes with the overall flow of a dungeon.

    • 3 posts
    February 4, 2019 10:24 PM PST

    Having another look at the abilities page for the Monk, I don't think we are going to be missing out on as much dps as we thought, and here's why:

    Our Chakra spenders (based on what we know) are Mountain Pose(Defense), Strike of the Wandering Wind(Defense/Offense), Resonating Palm(Offensive in nature, with heal attached), Harmonious Bond (Defensive Heal, with offense potential), and Blast of Chakra(Hail Mary Offensive ability, with niche defensive potential)

    As you can see, our only "Real" offensive chakra spenders would be Resonating Palm and Harmonious Bond (for the attack speed).

    Iron Palm (our taunt) is actually a chakra Generator, although it requires the Gate of Anger to be open (Do not agree with this) 

    Given this information, let's say that I am in a scenario where my party pulled one too many mobs and now I have to off tank. IF I am out of chakra, I pop Inner Fountain (full chakra) into Iron Palm (chakra generator, but requires gate of anger to be open, very clunky indeed) Since I am now at full Chakra with all 6 gates opened, I use Mountain Pose for a nice armor boost into Harmonious Bond not only for a heal, but for the attack speed. I take a big hit to the face that nukes me really hard, (if it is physical) I use strike of the wandering wind, which not only heals me but also inflicts that enemy with all of the physical damage i've taken in the last 5 seconds (Stand in fire, DPS higher). I still have chakra left and I am pretty healthy, so now I'm using Resonating Palm due to the damage that it deals and healing that it provides. I only listed our chakra spenders in this scenario for ease, but this whole time we still have access to all of our endurance abilities, which seem to be our biggest dps.

    This scenario only works if I am reading how chakra works correctly. From my understanding there will be 6 indicators on the chakra bar, representing the different gates. From how it's worded on the class page, if I use a chakra spender that requires the Gate of Peace to be open, then that gate closes but I am still able to use the other Gates. If this is the case, it would be similar to how Death Knights work in WoW, with the Rune System. If this is the case, it wouldn't be super clunky, and it would allow us to reserve some Gates for those "Oh My" Moments.

     

    • 148 posts
    February 5, 2019 2:53 AM PST

    I guess we can agree to disagree.

    • 1372 posts
    February 5, 2019 2:50 PM PST

    Hey guys, types a long message the other day and hit the backward key, so... I'll sum it shortly :

     

    We currently do not know how will gate tied spells consume chakra, and it's obvious they can work differently following at least three schemes :

     

    - 1) One gate worth of cost : In this design, using a skill requiring a gate would cost you a gate worth, which would be 15% of your chakra. That means you have a long ramp up time if you want/need to reach a high gate, then a maintenance cost until you need or want to burn multiple successive skills. Pretty balanced and easy to understand, probably too much, and a one gate cost would make ramp up the only difficulty in using late gate skills.

    - 2) Fixed cost, variable : In this design, in addition to the last option, every "gate" skill would be tied to a different cost, that could depend of the power of the skills and/or increase the maintenance cost, or decrease it depending of you utilisation. Taunting / defending could be less costy because it's not part of your usual job (DPS) and should be ready for oh **** situations. Balanced around costs, and making some choices more costly, which in turn allows for more powerfull skills behind high gates, as a non static cost offer more control over the magnitude. (opt1 would allow to use chakra blast every gate worth of chakra, which with no cooldown would be pretty overpowered I think)

    - 3) Full gate cost : In this design, the skill would remove every gate it required open, meaning a 6 gate skill would remove your full gauge while a 1 gate skill used at the sixth, would bring you back to gate 5. This design would make the ramp up crucial in some situation and force you to think twice because your sixth gate skill would leave you completely naked facing bad situations, but would require stronger and stronger skills the more gate it requires due to the downtime it would imply. This solution is probably my favorite because you have to think a bit away before using your big chakra spenders. It allows a good balance between ramp up and skill effectivity, while still offering a way to react to sticky situations with a quick iron palm while building up for late gates.

    -4) Full chakra gauge cost : In this design, any gate skill would empty your gauge, would it be an iron palm at gate sixth or a chakra blast. In this design any chakra use withouth thinking forward would be either punitive or optimized, bringing a high skill cap, a high ramp up time and a very sporadic use of chakra blast as it would be long to be avaliable and any chakra spender used before reaching the gate of release would simply push far away the chance to use chakra blast. I'm not favoring this one, but I agree it offers a big wall of skill and will probably sort the good from the bad monks.

     

    Of course, there are others options, especially if cooldowns are mixxed in the way but i DO HOPE the gate tied skills have no cooldowns and are solely tied to your ability to reach the corresponding gate, as adding cooldowns to it would completely hinder the ramp up mechanics and reduce the impact of inner fountain (I'm okay for short cooldowns <5s to avoid double chakra blast in succession, if needed, but only if needed and not option 4. )

    • 148 posts
    February 5, 2019 6:40 PM PST

    Sorry you wrote all that, but we do know how 'Gates' will work. If you watch the Fitforgaming Monk stream - you can see the abilities, resources, and how the class works. Currently the 'Gates' are basically just class flare and mean you need X amount of Chi (chakra) to use the skill.

    • 1372 posts
    February 5, 2019 8:51 PM PST

    No worries I'm not beeing paid or anything for that :p.

     

    Then it's opt 3 I guess. Which opens interesting combinaison but justify some heavy scaling on damage / chakra spent .

     

    However, things can change pretty fast from now to the release, as much as classes sum ups on the website got a few undocumented changes, whether to remove some precision or subtle changes of wordins. Who knows.

    • 36 posts
    February 8, 2019 5:46 AM PST

     

    Inner Fountain

    Through intense concentration and strength of will, you completely fill your Chakra pool, opening all 6 gates.

     

    This is what allows you to instantly off-tank using burst mitigation and heal skills after you have been keeping your Chi depleted due to focusing on damage before.

     

     

    You're a bit of a confusing bloke really Fragile. You posted an essay of concerns, they were simply answered by other people and your response was to bury your head in the sand and ignore it...

     

    I see why you chose that name for yourself. Fragile indeed.


    This post was edited by Ezrael at February 8, 2019 5:52 AM PST
    • 148 posts
    February 8, 2019 8:57 PM PST

    Ezrael said:

     Inner Fountain

    Through intense concentration and strength of will, you completely fill your Chakra pool, opening all 6 gates.

     

    This is what allows you to instantly off-tank using burst mitigation and heal skills after you have been keeping your Chi depleted due to focusing on damage before.

     

    Once every X mins, clunky cooldown (thats most likely better used offensively during a burn) - and when this isn't up, you are in the same bad spot as I mentioned before.

    You're a bit of a confusing bloke really Fragile. You posted an essay of concerns, they were simply answered by other people and your response was to bury your head in the sand and ignore it...

    I see why you chose that name for yourself. Fragile indeed.

    I feel like in my first (OP) and second post that I clearly stated my opinions (and concerns) with the class. I mean I could go in a dissect every ability and why it doesn't work or how it should work, but I don't think that is worth my time. It's fine however that you want to personally attack me, as my post was meant for the development team and a few select others in the community.

    • 1372 posts
    February 9, 2019 12:11 PM PST

    I still hope the Monk offtanking role won't make him a chips outside of cooldowns, and an Iron palm would allow him to snap aggro and play his role.

     

    Cooldowns are great for panic situation, but if they are required to tank one single mob then maybe offtanking will be too tied to cooldowns and not enough organic or baked in the class.

    • 449 posts
    February 11, 2019 11:53 AM PST

    MauvaisOeil said:

    I still hope the Monk offtanking role won't make him a chips outside of cooldowns, and an Iron palm would allow him to snap aggro and play his role.

     

    Cooldowns are great for panic situation, but if they are required to tank one single mob then maybe offtanking will be too tied to cooldowns and not enough organic or baked in the class.

    -insert devil's advocate- 

    Like the Dire Lord requiring cooldowns to "tank"?  ;p

    Just kidding Mauv, love you bud :)

    To address the O.P. - something important to keep in mind is that we have not yet seen all of the class skills yet either.  I'm confident that the monk will be a solid class, fully capable of performing great DPS.  Off-tanking is not their primary role, but I think it is cool that it is even an option, as no other class has a flex role (that we've seen so far).