Forums » Pantheon Classes

Which class do you think will make the most money and why?

    • 366 posts
    February 11, 2019 6:39 PM PST

    oneADseven said:

    In many ways ... I view a player driven economy as a foundation for "intentional emergence."  If the game is being designed, eyes wide open, with the intention of having most items tradable ... there are endless possibilities of how players can accumulate wealth or items.  Where you sell, when you sell, and how you sell all have an impact.  The same can be said for buying.  Players can start off with scraps and if they play their cards right they can start flipping gold without ever venturing out into the wilds.  This concept doesn't really follow risk vs reward in a traditional way, but it does still exist.  Time/Effort/Resources are considered risk, in this sense.  There are any number of ways that you can exhaust those resources and if someone makes the conscious decision to play the role of opportunistic tradesmen instead of adventurer or crafter, there is an opportunity cost for that decision.  It's a very non-linear approach to gaming and it's also highly social and interactive.

    At the end of the day, this type of gameplay can be incredibly satisfying for certain kinds of players.  They like to learn the ins and outs of the economy and discover patterns or trends that can become profitable.  There are plenty of folks out there who prefer to unload their merchandise to vendors or undercut the lowest price on the auction house.  The relationship between these two player types is actually quite harmonious.  On one end you have someone who would prefer to spend their time adventuring or doing something else ... they just want a reasonable offer for whatever they are selling and they are happy to go on with their day.  This pairs up nicely with the tradesmen who actively seeks these kind of players out.  They purchase their items for a mutually agreed price and then they look for ways to create a profit margin.  It's basically the "circle of life" in a player driven economy.  The emphasis on regional markets and resources adds a lot of depth to this style of play.

     

    My problem with the economic game play is that it isn't even a real difficult game. My friend and I have messed with it in games and it is always the same basic concept to which anyone with half a brain can easily work and manipulate the market. If you look at the games economy, what is missing? Where are your costs, fees, taxes, regulations, perishable products, storage rent, etc.. ? Where is your constant need to feed yourself, house yourself, and all the costs associated with it where if your efforts in the trade market do not succeed, you end up in the red? None of the reality factors exist in the economy, so there is no major time sensitive elements. For instance, if you buy up a bunch of some product, you can sit on it indefinitely as there are no reoccurring storage fees. So you buy up a bunch of special food items, potions, etc.. and sit on them, is there any expiration date? Where is the need to time your buying and selling in this issue? I mean, sure there are basic concepts of supply and demand, but it is void of all the other balancing factors that exist in a real economy. 

    In the adventure portion of the game, the entire point is to try to emulate a realistic system of pros/cons in decision making while none that exists in the economy. There really is no development or design to that market, it is just a bunch of players E-baying items back and forth using in game money to circumvent actually having to obtain the items through game play. Shouldn't the economy also have many game play elements so that there is true risk and reward? You know, where if you make a bad decision on the market, you lose it all? Or.. if you over spend, you can't pay your market fees/dues  and the trade association comes and confiscates your goods to auction off to pay your bill? See where I am going? See how there really isn't even a game to these MMO economies, just excuses for players to justify content circumvention?

     

    • 1276 posts
    February 11, 2019 11:17 PM PST

    Tanix said:

    oneADseven said:

    In many ways ... I view a player driven economy as a foundation for "intentional emergence."  If the game is being designed, eyes wide open, with the intention of having most items tradable ... there are endless possibilities of how players can accumulate wealth or items.  Where you sell, when you sell, and how you sell all have an impact.  The same can be said for buying.  Players can start off with scraps and if they play their cards right they can start flipping gold without ever venturing out into the wilds.  This concept doesn't really follow risk vs reward in a traditional way, but it does still exist.  Time/Effort/Resources are considered risk, in this sense.  There are any number of ways that you can exhaust those resources and if someone makes the conscious decision to play the role of opportunistic tradesmen instead of adventurer or crafter, there is an opportunity cost for that decision.  It's a very non-linear approach to gaming and it's also highly social and interactive.

    At the end of the day, this type of gameplay can be incredibly satisfying for certain kinds of players.  They like to learn the ins and outs of the economy and discover patterns or trends that can become profitable.  There are plenty of folks out there who prefer to unload their merchandise to vendors or undercut the lowest price on the auction house.  The relationship between these two player types is actually quite harmonious.  On one end you have someone who would prefer to spend their time adventuring or doing something else ... they just want a reasonable offer for whatever they are selling and they are happy to go on with their day.  This pairs up nicely with the tradesmen who actively seeks these kind of players out.  They purchase their items for a mutually agreed price and then they look for ways to create a profit margin.  It's basically the "circle of life" in a player driven economy.  The emphasis on regional markets and resources adds a lot of depth to this style of play.

     

     

    My problem with the economic game play is that it isn't even a real difficult game. My friend and I have messed with it in games and it is always the same basic concept to which anyone with half a brain can easily work and manipulate the market. If you look at the games economy, what is missing? Where are your costs, fees, taxes, regulations, perishable products, storage rent, etc.. ? Where is your constant need to feed yourself, house yourself, and all the costs associated with it where if your efforts in the trade market do not succeed, you end up in the red? None of the reality factors exist in the economy, so there is no major time sensitive elements. For instance, if you buy up a bunch of some product, you can sit on it indefinitely as there are no reoccurring storage fees. So you buy up a bunch of special food items, potions, etc.. and sit on them, is there any expiration date? Where is the need to time your buying and selling in this issue? I mean, sure there are basic concepts of supply and demand, but it is void of all the other balancing factors that exist in a real economy. 

    In the adventure portion of the game, the entire point is to try to emulate a realistic system of pros/cons in decision making while none that exists in the economy. There really is no development or design to that market, it is just a bunch of players E-baying items back and forth using in game money to circumvent actually having to obtain the items through game play. Shouldn't the economy also have many game play elements so that there is true risk and reward? You know, where if you make a bad decision on the market, you lose it all? Or.. if you over spend, you can't pay your market fees/dues  and the trade association comes and confiscates your goods to auction off to pay your bill? See where I am going? See how there really isn't even a game to these MMO economies, just excuses for players to justify content circumvention?

     

     

    No game is hard or made to be a pure loss if you manage it bad, and I'm pretty sure the game would steadily loose it's player base if trading was full of taxes, costs and a difficulty that would overcome the benefits of doing anything.

    Taking away the need of a new challenge or a layer of difficulty, keep in mind it's a game and most people play it to be freed of IRL bonds and values, not to have a second job they can eventually risk to suck at and loose their time withouth any potential feeling of accomplishment.

    • 366 posts
    February 12, 2019 5:10 AM PST

    MauvaisOeil said:

    Tanix said:

    oneADseven said:

    In many ways ... I view a player driven economy as a foundation for "intentional emergence."  If the game is being designed, eyes wide open, with the intention of having most items tradable ... there are endless possibilities of how players can accumulate wealth or items.  Where you sell, when you sell, and how you sell all have an impact.  The same can be said for buying.  Players can start off with scraps and if they play their cards right they can start flipping gold without ever venturing out into the wilds.  This concept doesn't really follow risk vs reward in a traditional way, but it does still exist.  Time/Effort/Resources are considered risk, in this sense.  There are any number of ways that you can exhaust those resources and if someone makes the conscious decision to play the role of opportunistic tradesmen instead of adventurer or crafter, there is an opportunity cost for that decision.  It's a very non-linear approach to gaming and it's also highly social and interactive.

    At the end of the day, this type of gameplay can be incredibly satisfying for certain kinds of players.  They like to learn the ins and outs of the economy and discover patterns or trends that can become profitable.  There are plenty of folks out there who prefer to unload their merchandise to vendors or undercut the lowest price on the auction house.  The relationship between these two player types is actually quite harmonious.  On one end you have someone who would prefer to spend their time adventuring or doing something else ... they just want a reasonable offer for whatever they are selling and they are happy to go on with their day.  This pairs up nicely with the tradesmen who actively seeks these kind of players out.  They purchase their items for a mutually agreed price and then they look for ways to create a profit margin.  It's basically the "circle of life" in a player driven economy.  The emphasis on regional markets and resources adds a lot of depth to this style of play.

     

     

    My problem with the economic game play is that it isn't even a real difficult game. My friend and I have messed with it in games and it is always the same basic concept to which anyone with half a brain can easily work and manipulate the market. If you look at the games economy, what is missing? Where are your costs, fees, taxes, regulations, perishable products, storage rent, etc.. ? Where is your constant need to feed yourself, house yourself, and all the costs associated with it where if your efforts in the trade market do not succeed, you end up in the red? None of the reality factors exist in the economy, so there is no major time sensitive elements. For instance, if you buy up a bunch of some product, you can sit on it indefinitely as there are no reoccurring storage fees. So you buy up a bunch of special food items, potions, etc.. and sit on them, is there any expiration date? Where is the need to time your buying and selling in this issue? I mean, sure there are basic concepts of supply and demand, but it is void of all the other balancing factors that exist in a real economy. 

    In the adventure portion of the game, the entire point is to try to emulate a realistic system of pros/cons in decision making while none that exists in the economy. There really is no development or design to that market, it is just a bunch of players E-baying items back and forth using in game money to circumvent actually having to obtain the items through game play. Shouldn't the economy also have many game play elements so that there is true risk and reward? You know, where if you make a bad decision on the market, you lose it all? Or.. if you over spend, you can't pay your market fees/dues  and the trade association comes and confiscates your goods to auction off to pay your bill? See where I am going? See how there really isn't even a game to these MMO economies, just excuses for players to justify content circumvention?

     

     

    No game is hard or made to be a pure loss if you manage it bad, and I'm pretty sure the game would steadily loose it's player base if trading was full of taxes, costs and a difficulty that would overcome the benefits of doing anything.

    Taking away the need of a new challenge or a layer of difficulty, keep in mind it's a game and most people play it to be freed of IRL bonds and values, not to have a second job they can eventually risk to suck at and loose their time withouth any potential feeling of accomplishment.

     

    EQ was pure loss if you managed it badly (on the adventure side). That is, if you were a horrible player, you died constantly, and would end up losing exp rather than earning it, which then woudl result in losing levels and digressing, rather than progressing. In terms of monetary progress, the game should result in going bankrupt (losing everything) and maybe a temporary penalty for such. A game that has no means to produce a net negative, isn't a game, rather it is an entertainment simulator and why games today are so pointless. 

    Now I am not saying that the game has to have complete emulation of RL, rather my point was that currently, the economic side is lacking any form of real risk in play, which makes it more of a cheat system than an actual gaming system. As I said, the adventure side of the game has negatives, issues where you can digress if you do not manage yourself properly. The economic side should be no less. 

    This is the point of gaming. While people play games for entertainment, a game itself is not entertainment. There are objectives, metrics to be met, goals to be achieved, and failures (and penalties) associated with them. 

    • 2738 posts
    February 12, 2019 6:31 AM PST

    I'm sure we'll see plenty of costs, taxes, and fees associated with auction house transactions.  The game could charge a non-reimbursable listing fee for every item.  That listing fee can scale based on the duration of the listing.  AH Brokers will most certainly be taking a cut (tax) from any sales.  It's entirely possible that we could see a storage limit that regulates how many listings we can have in any given region.  There is so much nuance when it comes to this stuff ... it's really hard to dive deep into the details.  In general, though ... all of these things are good for the opportunistic tradesmen.  Every obstacle or barrier is an opportunity to identify a profit margin.  I'm sure the outpost feature will have an impact on this role as well.  As long as the game is truly challenging ... a player driven economy will be a game defining strength.  Economies are generally flushed down the toilet when everything is accessible to everyone.  The more exclusive the content, the more valuable it's rewards will be.  If people start viewing the world as a giant waiting line for their favorite concession stand ... or if they look at an NPC as a piece of pre-purchased merchandise sitting in their grocery cart ... that's not good.  This is why I have stressed open fun/healthy competition.  Competition is always good in the market place.

    • 366 posts
    February 12, 2019 6:44 AM PST

    oneADseven said:

    I'm sure we'll see plenty of costs, taxes, and fees associated with auction house transactions.  The game could charge a non-reimbursable listing fee for every item.  That listing fee can scale based on the duration of the listing.  AH Brokers will most certainly be taking a cut (tax) from any sales.  It's entirely possible that we could see a storage limit that regulates how many listings we can have in any given region.  There is so much nuance when it comes to this stuff ... it's really hard to dive deep into the details.  In general, though ... all of these things are good for the opportunistic tradesmen.  Every obstacle or barrier is an opportunity to identify a profit margin.  I'm sure the outpost feature will have an impact on this role as well.  As long as the game is truly challenging ... a player driven economy will be a game defining strength.  Economies are generally flushed down the toilet when everything is accessible to everyone.  The more exclusive the content, the more valuable it's rewards will be.  If people start viewing the world as a giant waiting line for their favorite concession stand ... or if they look at an NPC as a piece of pre-purchased merchandise sitting in their grocery cart ... that's not good.  This is why I have stressed open fun/healthy competition.  Competition is always good in the market place.

    I would prefer to see storage costs implemented. This would place urgency on moving a product, making the practice of "buy it all up and sit on it" an ineffective one. Sure, listing fees is one thing, but these just get front loaded into the sale and with no reocurring system, there is no concern if an item sells or not. If the fee system was reoccuiring (ie you put it up for sale and that item then begins to incur periodic reocurring fees, it then requires the player to weight the value of the product, if they can move it, what price will cause it to move, and how long they can keep it before the profit made in the sale is spent in fees/storage costs. 

    That would be a true economy system that has pros/cons in play. As I said, today's game economies aren't even good simulations because they lack pretty much most reality in their designs. In RL, people trade for a reason and there is no free ride, everything is a cost, everything incurrs a price on your activity which is why some ventures are not profitable due to the various costs of going into that business. 

    In all honesty, I think the reason most people like these game economies is because they are not based in any form of practical risk vs reward, there is no responsiblity in play that has lasting consequence. That is, game economies simply tend to be a means for players to circumvent the rest of the games requirements in play. 

    • 1276 posts
    February 12, 2019 8:20 AM PST

    EQ was pure loss if you managed it badly (on the adventure side). That is, if you were a horrible player, you died constantly, and would end up losing exp rather than earning it, which then woudl result in losing levels and digressing, rather than progressing. In terms of monetary progress, the game should result in going bankrupt (losing everything) and maybe a temporary penalty for such. A game that has no means to produce a net negative, isn't a game, rather it is an entertainment simulator and why games today are so pointless. 

     

    Yes and no. Yes if you consider the gain/loss beeing experience. You still keep your skill levels, your gear (mostly, except if you screw very very hard), your bank stored items (and cash !), and your personal knowledge of the game (except if somethings goes wrong IRL, but let's not nitpick things).

     

    No if you consider a character is not just an Experience bar. It ultimately depends on what you consider a gain, and a downleveled player retain a lot of it's power even if he just "donged".

    • 366 posts
    February 12, 2019 9:12 AM PST

    MauvaisOeil said:

    EQ was pure loss if you managed it badly (on the adventure side). That is, if you were a horrible player, you died constantly, and would end up losing exp rather than earning it, which then woudl result in losing levels and digressing, rather than progressing. In terms of monetary progress, the game should result in going bankrupt (losing everything) and maybe a temporary penalty for such. A game that has no means to produce a net negative, isn't a game, rather it is an entertainment simulator and why games today are so pointless. 

     

    Yes and no. Yes if you consider the gain/loss beeing experience. You still keep your skill levels, your gear (mostly, except if you screw very very hard), your bank stored items (and cash !), and your personal knowledge of the game (except if somethings goes wrong IRL, but let's not nitpick things).

     

    No if you consider a character is not just an Experience bar. It ultimately depends on what you consider a gain, and a downleveled player retain a lot of it's power even if he just "donged".



    The exp bar for the most part was the key element of progresion in the game. It decided what content you could do, how high your skills could go, and in some cases, what zones you were allowed to enter. 

    I would say it was a pretty significant factor to which all other things revolved around. 

    The whole point here is that economies in games operate outside of the traditional scope of game play. Their systems often exist outside of the management of the developers (ie developers do not control the price, the rate of trade, etc...). This is why game economies go to crap so fast and why they also are the largest factor that affects the game overall (developers constantly have to come up with ways to deal with the negatvie effects the unchecked economy has on game play and design). They are completley unregulated or checked by either developer management or reality. 

     

    • 2147 posts
    February 12, 2019 2:55 PM PST

    Tanix said:

     

    My problem with the economic game play is that it isn't even a real difficult game. My friend and I have messed with it in games and it is always the same basic concept to which anyone with half a brain can easily work and manipulate the market. If you look at the games economy, what is missing? Where are your costs, fees, taxes, regulations, perishable products, storage rent, etc.. ? Where is your constant need to feed yourself, house yourself, and all the costs associated with it where if your efforts in the trade market do not succeed, you end up in the red? None of the reality factors exist in the economy, so there is no major time sensitive elements. For instance, if you buy up a bunch of some product, you can sit on it indefinitely as there are no reoccurring storage fees. So you buy up a bunch of special food items, potions, etc.. and sit on them, is there any expiration date? Where is the need to time your buying and selling in this issue? I mean, sure there are basic concepts of supply and demand, but it is void of all the other balancing factors that exist in a real economy. 

    In the adventure portion of the game, the entire point is to try to emulate a realistic system of pros/cons in decision making while none that exists in the economy. There really is no development or design to that market, it is just a bunch of players E-baying items back and forth using in game money to circumvent actually having to obtain the items through game play. Shouldn't the economy also have many game play elements so that there is true risk and reward? You know, where if you make a bad decision on the market, you lose it all? Or.. if you over spend, you can't pay your market fees/dues  and the trade association comes and confiscates your goods to auction off to pay your bill? See where I am going? See how there really isn't even a game to these MMO economies, just excuses for players to justify content circumvention?

    The "adventuring" gameplay isn't necessarily difficult either if one opts for it to not be since someone could level from start to finish taking the long route by only fighting in outdoor areas single pulling the lowest exp granting /con mobs.

    In any case the risks being taken when adventuring are mostly around gaining or losing experience/time, while the trader's risks are primarily around gaining or losing money/time. Should there be no AH it will make controlling/manipulating markets much more difficult (especially with regional markets), one bad investment could find them undercut by another trade-minded player, they can end up with a "dead" item that doesn't sell or takes way too long to move, or any number of other issues. Not to mention all the time spent sitting around buying/selling/trading is time not spent leveling/adventuring with all the perks that brings, like access to more items to sell and passive currency gain from mob to mob.

    • 366 posts
    February 12, 2019 3:11 PM PST

    Iksar said:

    Tanix said:

     

    My problem with the economic game play is that it isn't even a real difficult game. My friend and I have messed with it in games and it is always the same basic concept to which anyone with half a brain can easily work and manipulate the market. If you look at the games economy, what is missing? Where are your costs, fees, taxes, regulations, perishable products, storage rent, etc.. ? Where is your constant need to feed yourself, house yourself, and all the costs associated with it where if your efforts in the trade market do not succeed, you end up in the red? None of the reality factors exist in the economy, so there is no major time sensitive elements. For instance, if you buy up a bunch of some product, you can sit on it indefinitely as there are no reoccurring storage fees. So you buy up a bunch of special food items, potions, etc.. and sit on them, is there any expiration date? Where is the need to time your buying and selling in this issue? I mean, sure there are basic concepts of supply and demand, but it is void of all the other balancing factors that exist in a real economy. 

    In the adventure portion of the game, the entire point is to try to emulate a realistic system of pros/cons in decision making while none that exists in the economy. There really is no development or design to that market, it is just a bunch of players E-baying items back and forth using in game money to circumvent actually having to obtain the items through game play. Shouldn't the economy also have many game play elements so that there is true risk and reward? You know, where if you make a bad decision on the market, you lose it all? Or.. if you over spend, you can't pay your market fees/dues  and the trade association comes and confiscates your goods to auction off to pay your bill? See where I am going? See how there really isn't even a game to these MMO economies, just excuses for players to justify content circumvention?

    The "adventuring" gameplay isn't necessarily difficult either if one opts for it to not be since someone could level from start to finish taking the long route by only fighting in outdoor areas single pulling the lowest exp granting /con mobs.

    In any case the risks being taken when adventuring are mostly around gaining or losing experience/time, while the trader's risks are primarily around gaining or losing money/time. Should there be no AH it will make controlling/manipulating markets much more difficult (especially with regional markets), one bad investment could find them undercut by another trade-minded player, they can end up with a "dead" item that doesn't sell or takes way too long to move, or any number of other issues. Not to mention all the time spent sitting around buying/selling/trading is time not spent leveling/adventuring with all the perks that brings, like access to more items to sell and passive currency gain from mob to mob.

    Yep... I have seen your argument and in the face of the many elements I have provided (which you ignored), I can say...

    Good point, you are right.. 

    I really don't care..

    Carry on! 

    I am done with MMO arguments for gaming. Either this game will "somewhat" achieve my expectaions, or it will fail. Either way, good luck. I am done! 

     

    • 1252 posts
    February 14, 2019 3:16 PM PST

    nosepilot44 said: I'm really curious to hear everyone's opinions on which classes will be able to make the most money in game? As a former casual eq player I remember wanting to buy cool gear but not being able to afford it haha. So maybe this will help me decide on which class I'd like to focus on in Pantheon. So which class do you think will be rolling in the dough and why? My speculations so far are either druid because of speed buffs and ports or rogue because of pickpocketing. What do you think?

    I've been mulling this over for awhile and think that a different approach to the answer might be in order.  Instead of just looking at what class might have an overall higher average earning potential, think more about those actions which will cost money..and work to minimize them.  One thing that I've learned across numerous MMOs is that minimizing expenses will maximize what money you do earn.  So looking at potential money sinks, what steps can be taken to avoid those as often as possible?  The more things you can do yourself, the less you need to rely upon, and pay out to, the market.

    There will be some classes that, through the skills/abilities of the class, may very well have an advantage in some areas of income generation, those areas are limited.  No one class will be better at it everywhere.  While an EQ1 druid was able to solo outdoor content quite easily, they could not bring their primary tools to bear in many dungeons where coin/loot drops were avaiable in higher concentrations.  The classes (and it will be plural) that have a higher desirability in groups will have an advantage in earning income from adventuring.  Every class is on equal footing when it comes to income generation through tradeskills and/or market manipulation.

    The player that can better balance all three, reducing unnecessary expenses, maximizing income from adventuring and having a strong market presence will make more money.  So it is more on the player, not just the class.

    • 394 posts
    February 15, 2019 11:48 AM PST

    @Vandraad - I made a similar post earlier.  You need to account for overhead as well as consistent demand when considering profit margins; this was why I suggested a wizard or druid depending on the overhead of portals (likely reagents) and on their tradeskill(s), also their ability to solo and how often they need purchase food/drink and gear upgrades/repairs compared to other classes (which historically has been lower for casters than for melee).


    This post was edited by Darch at February 15, 2019 11:50 AM PST