Keno Monster said:Kaeldorn said:Keno Monster said:Yes, it is. You're making a black and white statement. A player may prefer soloing but still love the other social aspects of the game. They may love bartering, they may love crafting and selling their wares to other people, they may love roleplaying and chatting with other people. They may love being in a persistant living world with other people and yet not wish to spend the majority of their time grouping with them.
The crafting and just exploring and enjoying a persistent world I can understand, though as Tanix pointed out, both of those aspects are very well done in a number of open world single player RPG's. You don't exactly need an MMO to engage in those sorts of activities. And often you get to have a much bigger impact on the story to boot.
If I need to explain the difference that people experience between a single player game and a multi player game, regardless of whether or not they want to group in the MP game, I...well I can't. It is something that is just so obvious to me and I'm more than a little surprised that people are pulling the "go play a single player game" card when there is obviously so much more to it than that.
The fact that you are at a loss of ability to now defend your position is not an argument. If your position has validity, it can be quantified. Right now you are essentially saying you can't explain your position, but you are correct and we are somehow lacking in our argument even though we have provided you our positions.
I like to play more as a group. If I can find a great group to spend a few hours delving into a dungeon for exp and loot, while bonding and laughing about in-game or out of game content then thats what I'd prefer. Thats why im here. I believe Pantheon will offer that to me.
Soloing has its place, and in someways is better, but mostly i only will solo if im having a hard time finding a group or im working on tradeskill stuff. Also, i tend to get bored quicker while soloing.
Tanix said:Keno Monster said:Kaeldorn said:Keno Monster said:Yes, it is. You're making a black and white statement. A player may prefer soloing but still love the other social aspects of the game. They may love bartering, they may love crafting and selling their wares to other people, they may love roleplaying and chatting with other people. They may love being in a persistant living world with other people and yet not wish to spend the majority of their time grouping with them.
The crafting and just exploring and enjoying a persistent world I can understand, though as Tanix pointed out, both of those aspects are very well done in a number of open world single player RPG's. You don't exactly need an MMO to engage in those sorts of activities. And often you get to have a much bigger impact on the story to boot.
If I need to explain the difference that people experience between a single player game and a multi player game, regardless of whether or not they want to group in the MP game, I...well I can't. It is something that is just so obvious to me and I'm more than a little surprised that people are pulling the "go play a single player game" card when there is obviously so much more to it than that.
The fact that you are at a loss of ability to now defend your position is not an argument. If your position has validity, it can be quantified. Right now you are essentially saying you can't explain your position, but you are correct and we are somehow lacking in our argument even though we have provided you our positions.
I was trying to be polite, as it has been explained clearly multiple times. It would seem you are refusing to appreciate that.
I preffer to group, in all honesty I'm sick to death of soloing in MMO's. But it's nice to have the option.
This was one of the cool things in EQ, most classes needed outside buffs to solo mobs of equal level, not all but most. I miss that kind of thing honestly, if you wanted to do (example) old Seb, Cazic Thule, Guk, you pretty much needed a group, some of that content wasn't even soloable at max level for most classes, some classes were simply better at soloing because of certain spell/skill sets.
Really good equipemt also opened up soloing for more classes but they really had to work for it. I think what I'm really tired of seeing are those stupid groups of mobs designed to solo, snore fest! :P
Using the W-word game here as an example because that one started off group-centric but became solo-centric ovr time:
That game had plenty of solo content. Enough that a player could level to max without ever having to group with another player. This was as true in the beginning as at it today. I'm talking about the dungeon and raid content.
Obviously you need to group up to take on a dungeon at or near your own level. In this game as in many others you'd have to consult your friends list to try and put a group together. If you are mostly a solo player you probably had very few if any players on your friends list. If not enough were online and available you'd start shouting in zone for others to join your dungeon crawl. This sometimes took a while but in the meantime the rest of you would talk and joke and screw around, maybe even work together on nearby quests. Once your group gets going in the dungeon and all goes well you end up with more names on your friends list. Soon you have many friends in the game and always have something to do. You might even form a new guild together.
Fastforward a few years and everybody is a solo player. Grouping for dungeons means clicking a couple buttons, getting teleported to the dungeon, completing it without ever saying a word to anyone you're grouped with because chances are they're all from different servers and you'll never see them again. Back to soloing afterward. It's just about as antisocial as a social game can become.
If the typical content outside of dungeons is difficult enough to warrant grouping up you build a much stronger social community very early on in a character's carreer rather than waiting for dungeons to start making friends. Many players simply prefer to go it solo. There's nothing wrong with that but that isn't Pantheon. There are many, many other games out there built specifically for that kind of player. Let this one be for the rest of us.
First reason to play a multiplayer game. Is to play that specific game with other players.
With Pantheon in mind, I do see /expect that there will be planning required. This game might not be as fast paced as others (including travelling).
This would be a motivation, for me, to play this game instead of any other mmo. Because the dev's of this game are bold enough to design it this way.
It will require from me that I put on another thinking cap/playstyle. And that's what I'm seeking, no more fast pace, easy stuff. If that means I can't get my achievementshot every night in a 1 hour window, so be it. Then again, they already have stated that even in short gamesessions you will have progressed and experienced that progression.
Solo play is enjoyable, if it's well designed. It could however give me that treadmill feeling more easely.
I hope to strike a nice 70-30 or 80-20 balance.
This includes Crafting @Kilsin.
Later tonight, i will read all of it. but from what i have read, i'm a little bit surprised. For me the point of MMO's are to meet people, both good and bad players it doesn't matter. Refusing to do PUG's kind of goes against this mind set and as such, i'm more likely to join a pug and make new friends than i would join a guild group. Ofcourse when the opportunity arrises i will definitely join friends and guild groups, but most likely i'll end up in a pug and try to draw friends in when we're going.
As for that point, i prefer to group, and i long for the days to go without sleep and keep a camp or group going (within limits obviously). But at the same time i know that what i long for is nolonger possible, i've grown up into adulthood and my time to game becomes more scarce with added responsibilities. This means i will have to make time to game and will get behind the rest eventually. So yes i love and aim to group, but a solo option should definitely be available or atleast, a way to get xp solo, for i too will have times where a group will not be available and i do not have the time to dedicate myself to a group.
I really don't see what all the arguing in this thread is about. I agree that there is no reason to play a social game like Pantheon if you never or rarely want to interact with other players, but as far as I can tell nobody has made such a claim, on the contrary. In fact everybody has said that they like to group with other players, but maybe not all the time. And when they do things on their own, they still like to socialize in chat or by interacting in other ways; trading is one example.
My experience with the genre is limited to EQ2 and Vanguard, but in both those game there were plenty of things that could be done alone, e.g., hunting wildlife for pelts, but if you never grouped, you missed out on most of the fun stuff. How having some solo content could ever become a problem for anybody, I fail to see. Grouping should be strongly encouraged, but I see no reason to require it all the time.
One type of important solo content is the perils that lurk in the wildernes you're traveling through on your way to the dungeon where you have arranged to meet with your group. Without that, traveling would quickly become boring. On a side note, if all the fun stuff required grouping, one could fear that meaningful travel would soon be replaced by teleportation and excessive group arranging tools.
@Kilsin. I like both, but my fondest memories are from pairing with a friend (that I met in a pick-up group).
Both Solo hunting and group adventuring can be very enjoyable. In my opinion the best play experience though is mobile group combat adventuring and solo camping a named is the worst play experience.
What I hope to see is open world solo content and focused group content nodes/areas. There should be a clear delineation between solo and group content. Rather than thinking about content in terms of single mob stats it should be designed based on encounter strength.
Solo content is an unlinked creature roughly the same strength as an equal level player. These monsters have poor loot tables and the lowest exp table. A player could solo this content and eventually level but it is much slower than grouping and will basically never yield great loot. (Hoping that a time limited crafting system rather than a material limited system also decreases the need to harvest materials for hours on end)
Group content will have both challenge ratings and mob composition variations. A solo group mob would have enough HP that the entire groups average DPS will take the same amount of time for an average player to solo a solo content mob. At the same time the mob will output nearly 6 times the damage of a solo mob. The group solo mob will then draw from the group mob loot table of its challenge rating and will deliver 10 times the experience of an equal level solo mob.
In addition to solo mobs there can be pack leaders (1 mob of high strength and 3-6 mobs of ultra low HP), Elite pairs (2 linked mobs about the same combined strength of the solo mobs with complementary skills), Units (6 linked solo content mobs of mixed classes). All of these encounter structures will have different methods of handling and will roughly reward the same amount of average loot and experience as the solo group monster.
There can still be solo content mobs mixed in to the group content areas for both set dressing purposes and chances for unwanted adds. These mobs would not be actually soloable as they would be in locations that could only be reached with a full group.
It is my hope as well that even a raid geared level 50 can only handle level 25 group content solo. The base exp for solo mobs would be level squared so that it would be more efficient for a level 49 to solo a level 49 solo mob then to solo level 24 group content. This would mean that a level 25 character is 1/6th the power of a level 50 with full gear which should make for a good increase in power over levels but does not trivialize group content. The example of a level 50 being able to solo level 45 group content is appalling in my opinion and should never see the light of day or you will see high level players just solo camping all the value-able spawn locations 24/7.
Multigroup content could be designed using the same encounter design and scaling but be based on 12man 24man and 48man groups all assuming a base group size of 6. (scale everything to the final group size decision including the relative power level between a level 25 character and a level 50 fully equipped character)
It would be nice to see some method of group crafting though I agree that crafting should primarily be designed as solo content.
For me it depends on how you define grouping? Full Group? Yes, please. Duo/Trio/Foursome/Fivesome? Yes/yes/yes/yess, please!
Solo, as in play by myself or get buffs and power level? No thanks, in an ideal situation, but yes as a a default, if no ones around/on/available.
I'd like most content to be "unsoloable" for the level of mobs vs character level (above say level 5 or 10?). This forces players to come together and explore content with each other. This means, healers can log on find a dps and maybe utility or CC class, and engage some part of the world. Or a dps can log on and find a tank, and/or utility class, and/or another dps and/or a CC type class (no healer needed), and engage different parts of the world.
I also like options, lots and lots of options. Can I go solo? Sure, but not just kiting mobs just to power level. If I'm going to be solo in game, I prefer to craft, or buy/sell, or quest, or explore, also with the option to garb some slow, steady, XP, depending on that nights/days time allotment. Less rewards, but still progressing in some facet or another of the game.
I think ensuring that we need each other to excel at the game/content is an ideal target, whethers its grouping, or crafting, or buying and selling items. Also, one nights duo/trio/or less than full group, can be the next nights or days, full group, crafter, or porter, or Epic quest helper, or raid member, or guildmate, or lifelong in game friend
I prefer gaming with a group during prime time and during my off hour game time i like to solo. I enjoy different activities dependent on if i am with a group or solo. Grouping its about dungeon crawling and efficient experience. Soloing is about exploring, crafting and gathering. At least for me that is how i enjoy mmo gaming.
Recently was in EQ live, new start sever or whatever it's called, and had a blast and it was all pick
up groups. Once I hit the 30's it became really difficult finding consistent groups and after a week
I cut my losses and canceled my sub.
I've been a member of a guild for pushing 11 or 12 years now. About 100 of us plan to play with more
than half have been pledged. I hope finding groups or folks to fill out empty positions in guild groups is
the norm. It's just alot more fun even with the off night of being in a PUG with "difficult people".
If I solo it's because I can handle the content and I want to farm the area for trash drops for vendor cash or
a drop I can sell or trade to another player.
Kilsin said:What do you like more, to play solo or to play as part of a group? #MMORPG #communitymatters
Both,
I like to work twords my epic quest (or even smaller quest) While solo when there is a lot of running arround to do and none of my friends are on. This also leads to the opportunity to meet new friends if I in need to get a group for parts of it.
My focus is never just leveling (group and grind). I need a purpose. If I'm 25 and I need to be 26 to complete the next step, then I have that purpose. If I or a friend need to camp an item for the next step, then I have that purpose. The "purpose" can take many forms. When there ceaces to be purpose then I wonder "wtf am I doing this?" and ligg off. I go to the bottom of a dungon becouse I or a friend needs to get there. Never just to level. I still to this day can't understand why anybody would want to get to the END of a good game.
Unless of course it's NOT a good game.
IMHO
I prefer solo play for weeknights when I'm busy and am frequently distracted by various things, but groups on the weekend when I can generally have an uninterrupted 3-6 hours of play.
It's also fine with me if soloing is more difficult/slower than grouping. As long as I have something to do or can make some progress on my own when it's not ideal for me to be in a group, I'm happy as a clam.
Typically I prefer grouping due to the social interaction but soloing has it's place.
Normal when I hear the group vs solo debate I think of full groups when I hear the arguments. Quite often when I "group" its a duo or trio of close friends. Another thread asked about whether group or solo content is more important and agan I get the impression that by group they mean a full group. I understand groups will be designed around the holy trinity+CC but I would like to see content that is not locked in to the trinity +1 and is possible with less and not the ideal group. Something i loved about playing Everquest was how people would push the limits of their class to complete objectives. and do things that don't fit the norm.
