Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Solo vs Group

    • 1033 posts
    January 28, 2019 9:53 AM PST

    dorotea said:

    ((Not to sound like a smart arse dorotea, but aren't you describing that if you had to choose, you would rather play a single player game, which... there is an abundance of? ))

     

    When I saw the first few words I was starting to compose a somewhat snippy response (not nasty - in addition to being rude that generally is counterproductive) but this is a good question that I see quite often. Fortunately I happen to have a good answer (chuckles). 

    1. I *did* say I also liked to group and grouping when everything goes well is more fun and accomplishes more. It just isn't always feasible. A single player game doesn't give me the choice of grouping or soloing so for the last 20 or so years I have played MMOs and MUDs almost exclusively. I want Pantheon to give us all the choice of which mode to play any time we log on. 

    2. Perhaps even more important - while I solo I do many things that I cannot do in a single player game. I talk in zone or world chat - more than most people probably since it is how I socialize when not in a group. I try to be in guilds in MMOs and so I talk to guildmates, help guildmates and sometimes get help from guildmates. Technically a lot of this *is* group play but I don't think of coming over and spending half an hour helping someone accomplish something as the type of grouping Kilsin had in mind - thus my answer. But In a single player game I can't do any of the things I just mentioned.

    3. One of the things I do a lot of is craft. When crafting is well designed many things benefit from more than one person being involved. Hard to have more than one person in a single player game.

    You make the mistake that some other people also do - you think of going out and doing things in a full group or raid as the sine qua non of a MMO - the only thing a MMO offers that distinguishes it from a single player game. You forget, or choose not to mention because it defeats your argument, a MMO lets us talk to other people whether we are grouping or not. A MMO lets us help other people and be helped by other people whether we are doing "group content" or not. A MMO lets us join guilds with other people and work with other people for the benefit of the guild - as in building a guildhouse in Vanguard. A MMO lets us work with a more sophisticated, vibrant and interactive crafting system. No I do not want a single player game I want a MMO that provides all of these benefits, a MMO that lets us raid and group, and a MMO that lets us do solo content when that suits our available time and mood. I think Pantheon will be that MMO.

     

    You mention that you like to solo by doing group content - possible if you are way over the level of the content or have a class that lets you break the content and handle it in ways most other classes cannot - as in "emergent" use of feign death to break groups of enemies. If that is what you enjoy fine but it isn't what I want as solo content, it isn't what most of us want when we say in this thread we want some solo content (you have noticed a distinct lack of support for having *no* solo content by now I assume), it isn't the type of solo content that will attract players from other MMOs and get keep them here while they get used to the concept of grouping not just getting to level cap solo, it isn't the type of solo content that will attract and keep perhaps younger players that aren't used to uninterrupted play sessions of hour after hour after hour as we old timers are, it isn't ....you get the point. The solo content that will do all of these things and more is content designed to be done by characters of almost any class (yes some better than others of course) without having to *break* group content in an *emergent* way such as by kiting their butts off 24/7 or flopping.

     

    Fair enough, but you do realize that what you desire is present in pretty much every MMO out there today? 

     

    So why does Pantheon need to be changed to serve your "style" of game play when so many options exist to serve your expectation?

     

    Honestly, I am not trying to attack or antagonize you. These are honest questions based on my observation of the playing conditions you seem to seek. 

     

    So far, you have stated you want content that a person can solo if they like and it should be in such a manner that one can accomplish something in a very short period of time due to RL play restrictions. 

    Why Pantheon? Why, after reading the design goals and tenants of this game do you feel this is the right choice considering your expectations and what is currently available on the market? 

    I in all honesty am asking this question, no ill will or motive. I am just interested to know. 


    This post was edited by Tanix at January 28, 2019 9:54 AM PST
    • 127 posts
    January 28, 2019 9:57 AM PST

    What an odd question. Anyone who prefers playing solo shouldn't be all that interested in an MMO because single player games can offer better solo content without compromise.

    Generally speaking solo play should still be an option, but it's usually going to be geared towards scavenging for crafting materials or generating some income fighting things that barely yield any experience. Just things to do when you don't have time to commit to a group or can't find one.

    • 696 posts
    January 28, 2019 10:11 AM PST

    I prefer grouping over solo. This is why I am interested in the game to begin with. However, just like EQ...I would assume you could solo content if you are 50 and you can solo a 45 lvl area and do some boss killing...depending on the class. I assume there will be kiting classes, which is fine too, but I mainly want to see group content for your current level and solo capabilities in group content that is lower lvl.

    • 3852 posts
    January 28, 2019 10:29 AM PST

    ((Why Pantheon? Why, after reading the design goals and tenants of this game do you feel this is the right choice considering your expectations and what is currently available on the market? ))

     

    Why does someone that didn't play EQ for more than an hour and finds grouping desirable but not entirely *necessary* find Pantheon so alluring? Because Pantheon offers the hope of many things going way way beyond nostalgia for EQ and an improved grouping experience. You will actually agree with me on most of this. Please note I am not taking the time to put these in order of importance.

    Pantheon will offer a very slow and deliberate path to maximum level. It will not take a day as in some MMOs. It will not take  two or three weeks as in LOTRO (fairly long days to do it that fast). It will take months or years. Pantheon will offer much more challenge than is typical. Leveling will be difficult not merely slow. It will be possible to die while leveling even at lower levels - in fact it will be highly likely. And lest you go back to the solo versus group debate - solo play well designed is every bit as dangerous and challenging as group play well designed. Pantheon will reward success and penalize failure - death will be much more than a minor inconvenience. Pantheon will have distinct roles with little or no overlap - tanks will be better at tanking by far than any other class and will be *needed* for that role. Healers will be better at healing by far than any other class and will be *needed* for that role. Etc. No Rift-like any class can do anything. No FFXIV-like any one character can do everything. Pantheon will have far more elaborate and better crafting than one sees in these benighted days. It may be as good as Vanguard was. It may even be better. Pantheon will have a wide variety of classes many of which are attractive and that aren't just the same class with minor variations. Pantheon will have a wide variety of races that aren't just the same race with different skins. Pantheon will have slow travel and much exploration - the world will be something to enjoy not a minor inconvenience to bypass while leveling. Pantheon will quite likely have a more challenging and less convenient system of mail and markets. Pantheon will not be dominated by pvp even indirectly as some of the more attractive games now in development or recently released are. Pantheon will have guilds that are important and that have mechanics to support them more than other MMOs typically do.  Sorry for a long paragraph not broken out item by item as is my wont - this is all off-topic to the point of this thread so while I wanted to reply I wanted the reply to take a minimum of actual space. Pantheon will take many good features from the old days and use advances in the state of the art to make them better. In short - Pantheon is not a one trick pony. It is not only for those that like to group 24/7. Pantheon offers a large tent that more than one type of player can be delighted to take shelter under from the miserable weather that even the best current MMO unleashes on our unsheltered heads.


    This post was edited by dorotea at January 28, 2019 10:32 AM PST
    • 1714 posts
    January 28, 2019 10:35 AM PST

    It's a logical fallacy to suggest that a person who wants to solo in an MMO would be better of playing a single player game. There is WAY more to a multiplayer game than grouping. 

    • 127 posts
    January 28, 2019 11:07 AM PST

    Keno Monster said:

    It's a logical fallacy to suggest that a person who wants to solo in an MMO would be better of playing a single player game. There is WAY more to a multiplayer game than grouping. 

    It's not a logical fallacy to suggest that a person who prefers to play alone over joining others and doing things as a group would probably find better entertainment elsewhere.

    And that's the question that was asked in the original post. Which do you prefer.

    The suggestion isn't to tell anyone to leave Pantheon either. I enjoy single player games and play them just as much as multiplayer games, for different reasons. But if someone would rather not group up with people most of the time while playing an MMO that's basically like saying the game's primary focus (which most of the game's systems are going to be built around) is not as appealing to them. It just doesn't make sense to me. And neither do most of the modern MMO's that have shifted their focus away from the actual multiplayer experience to provide a better solo experience.

    • 3852 posts
    January 28, 2019 11:29 AM PST

    ((It's not a logical fallacy to suggest that a person who prefers to play alone over joining others and doing things as a group would probably find better entertainment elsewhere.))

    Very true if Pantheon was no better than other games except for encouraging groups more than they do. It will be both sad and shocking if this proves to be the case.

    • 18 posts
    January 28, 2019 11:55 AM PST

    I think there needs to be a balance, EQ got it spot on really. If people want to solo then that's up to them. Doesn't mean they aren't social, and saying they should play solo games is a bit daft because with MMO games comes the social aspect in other areas such as trading, chat channels and guilds. 

    And those players that like to solo can't raid solo so they will always be looking for end game grouping. It's all about the journey, making individual choices and enjoying what you do along the way.

    Hopefully VR get it right and find a balance that works all round for everyone.

    • 1714 posts
    January 28, 2019 11:57 AM PST

    Kaeldorn said:

    Keno Monster said:

    It's a logical fallacy to suggest that a person who wants to solo in an MMO would be better of playing a single player game. There is WAY more to a multiplayer game than grouping. 

    It's not a logical fallacy to suggest that a person who prefers to play alone over joining others and doing things as a group would probably find better entertainment elsewhere.

    And that's the question that was asked in the original post. Which do you prefer.

    The suggestion isn't to tell anyone to leave Pantheon either. I enjoy single player games and play them just as much as multiplayer games, for different reasons. But if someone would rather not group up with people most of the time while playing an MMO that's basically like saying the game's primary focus (which most of the game's systems are going to be built around) is not as appealing to them. It just doesn't make sense to me. And neither do most of the modern MMO's that have shifted their focus away from the actual multiplayer experience to provide a better solo experience.

    Yes, it is. You're making a black and white statement. A player may prefer soloing but still love the other social aspects of the game. They may love bartering, they may love crafting and selling their wares to other people, they may love roleplaying and chatting with other people. They may love being in a persistant living world with other people and yet not wish to spend the majority of their time grouping with them. 

    • 79 posts
    January 28, 2019 1:44 PM PST

    dorotea said:

    ((Not to sound like a smart arse dorotea, but aren't you describing that if you had to choose, you would rather play a single player game, which... there is an abundance of? ))

     

    When I saw the first few words I was starting to compose a somewhat snippy response (not nasty - in addition to being rude that generally is counterproductive) but this is a good question that I see quite often. Fortunately I happen to have a good answer (chuckles). 

    1. I *did* say I also liked to group and grouping when everything goes well is more fun and accomplishes more. It just isn't always feasible. A single player game doesn't give me the choice of grouping or soloing so for the last 20 or so years I have played MMOs and MUDs almost exclusively. I want Pantheon to give us all the choice of which mode to play any time we log on. 

    2. Perhaps even more important - while I solo I do many things that I cannot do in a single player game. I talk in zone or world chat - more than most people probably since it is how I socialize when not in a group. I try to be in guilds in MMOs and so I talk to guildmates, help guildmates and sometimes get help from guildmates. Technically a lot of this *is* group play but I don't think of coming over and spending half an hour helping someone accomplish something as the type of grouping Kilsin had in mind - thus my answer. But In a single player game I can't do any of the things I just mentioned.

    3. One of the things I do a lot of is craft. When crafting is well designed many things benefit from more than one person being involved. Hard to have more than one person in a single player game.

    You make the mistake that some other people also do - you think of going out and doing things in a full group or raid as the sine qua non of a MMO - the only thing a MMO offers that distinguishes it from a single player game. You forget, or choose not to mention because it defeats your argument, a MMO lets us talk to other people whether we are grouping or not. A MMO lets us help other people and be helped by other people whether we are doing "group content" or not. A MMO lets us join guilds with other people and work with other people for the benefit of the guild - as in building a guildhouse in Vanguard. A MMO lets us work with a more sophisticated, vibrant and interactive crafting system. No I do not want a single player game I want a MMO that provides all of these benefits, a MMO that lets us raid and group, and a MMO that lets us do solo content when that suits our available time and mood. I think Pantheon will be that MMO.

     

    You mention that you like to solo by doing group content - possible if you are way over the level of the content or have a class that lets you break the content and handle it in ways most other classes cannot - as in "emergent" use of feign death to break groups of enemies. If that is what you enjoy fine but it isn't what I want as solo content, it isn't what most of us want when we say in this thread we want some solo content (you have noticed a distinct lack of support for having *no* solo content by now I assume), it isn't the type of solo content that will attract players from other MMOs and get keep them here while they get used to the concept of grouping not just getting to level cap solo, it isn't the type of solo content that will attract and keep perhaps younger players that aren't used to uninterrupted play sessions of hour after hour after hour as we old timers are, it isn't ....you get the point. The solo content that will do all of these things and more is content designed to be done by characters of almost any class (yes some better than others of course) without having to *break* group content in an *emergent* way such as by kiting their butts off 24/7 or flopping.

     

    I wish there was a like button, couldn't agree more.

     

    Tanix said:

    So why does Pantheon need to be changed to serve your "style" of game play when so many options exist to serve your expectation?

    They have stated that there is going to be solo content in the FAQ, so I am not sure Pantheon is really being changed.  Also this is really off topic and becoming a solo vs group argument.


    This post was edited by Walpurgis at January 28, 2019 1:56 PM PST
    • 1785 posts
    January 28, 2019 1:44 PM PST

    My answer is very much like Dorotea's (and for many of the same reasons).

    I enjoy group content immensely.  It's a huge thrill to accomplish something with others.  However, I dislike being rushed.  Because of that, I prefer to do a lot of my exploration solo.  I also spend quite a lot of time doing things *other* than trying to level as fast as possible or delving into dungeons.  I realize in this day and age that probably seems like a foreign concept to many people. 

    I tend to plan out the big things I want to accomplish for when I know I'll have big blocks of uninterrupted time to play.  So those dungeon groups and so on tend to happen on a scheduled basis for me, which is generally weekends with maybe the occasional weeknight when I get lucky and don't have too much responsibility in the way.  However, I log in at other times too.  During those other times, you might find me crafting or gathering, or exploring solo and trying to learn an area better, or following up on lore threads and quest lines that don't involve getting into a fight right away - or even sometimes, if I'm feeling up to dealing with people, joining a PUG.


    This post was edited by Nephele at January 28, 2019 1:46 PM PST
    • 1033 posts
    January 28, 2019 2:52 PM PST

    Keno Monster said:

    It's a logical fallacy to suggest that a person who wants to solo in an MMO would be better of playing a single player game. There is WAY more to a multiplayer game than grouping. 

    Today, more and more single player games are trying to provide an MMO open world experience. They are in many ways.. an MMO in terms of world design, flow and appearance. The skills, the interactions, etc... all try to mimic this form of play. So it is a reasonable question to ask someone why they seek an MMO that does not meet their expectations (especially one like Pantheon which is centered around social group experiences and dependent on that for progress) when such avenues exist.

    • 35 posts
    January 28, 2019 2:54 PM PST

    Solo should be possible in some of the more peaceful areas but most of the content should require a group.

    In many other games grouping outside of a dungeon actually slows down progression and so you are actually punished for joining a group instead of being rewarded for trying to help your fellow players.

    • 1033 posts
    January 28, 2019 2:56 PM PST

    Walpurgis said:

    Tanix said:

    So why does Pantheon need to be changed to serve your "style" of game play when so many options exist to serve your expectation?

    They have stated that there is going to be solo content in the FAQ, so I am not sure Pantheon is really being changed.  Also this is really off topic and becoming a solo vs group argument.

    1.4 Will you be able to solo in Pantheon?

    Yes. While most content will be designed for groups, there will typically also be content that is soloable. Some classes may solo better than other classes.

     

    Yes, there will be, but based on the commentary I have seen in the past (unless it has changed), what they are talking about is that people will be able to solo like they did in EQ. That is, and it is hinted at in that explantion above, there will be content that is solable, some classes will be better at this than others. Just like EQ, there was content that was soloable, but that did not translate to "we designed content to be solable".

    If you design content to be soloable, it means it has to be balanced so that all classes can solo it. This is how it is in a lot of other MMOs out there, this game is not the same, they are not specifically (to my knowledge) designing content to be beaten by a single player.

    • 1033 posts
    January 28, 2019 3:00 PM PST

    Keno Monster said:

    Kaeldorn said:

    Keno Monster said:

    It's a logical fallacy to suggest that a person who wants to solo in an MMO would be better of playing a single player game. There is WAY more to a multiplayer game than grouping. 

    It's not a logical fallacy to suggest that a person who prefers to play alone over joining others and doing things as a group would probably find better entertainment elsewhere.

    And that's the question that was asked in the original post. Which do you prefer.

    The suggestion isn't to tell anyone to leave Pantheon either. I enjoy single player games and play them just as much as multiplayer games, for different reasons. But if someone would rather not group up with people most of the time while playing an MMO that's basically like saying the game's primary focus (which most of the game's systems are going to be built around) is not as appealing to them. It just doesn't make sense to me. And neither do most of the modern MMO's that have shifted their focus away from the actual multiplayer experience to provide a better solo experience.

    Yes, it is. You're making a black and white statement. A player may prefer soloing but still love the other social aspects of the game. They may love bartering, they may love crafting and selling their wares to other people, they may love roleplaying and chatting with other people. They may love being in a persistant living world with other people and yet not wish to spend the majority of their time grouping with them. 

     

    Except in the case of that poster, previous discussion has already eluded to the fact that they actually want content designed for solo play. So, if you want content designed for solo play and many single player games out there are designed around MMO open world, then... why come to this specific game and expect it cater to a single player need when its entire design goal is focused on the group based social games of the past where achievement required that social particpation to progress?

    If the only reasons is because the person wants to play a single player game in a chat room with others, well... it seems out of place if you ask me as there are better games to serve exactly that, why this one?

     

    • 1714 posts
    January 28, 2019 3:03 PM PST

    Tanix said:

    Keno Monster said:

    It's a logical fallacy to suggest that a person who wants to solo in an MMO would be better of playing a single player game. There is WAY more to a multiplayer game than grouping. 

    Today, more and more single player games are trying to provide an MMO open world experience. They are in many ways.. an MMO in terms of world design, flow and appearance. The skills, the interactions, etc... all try to mimic this form of play. So it is a reasonable question to ask someone why they seek an MMO that does not meet their expectations (especially one like Pantheon which is centered around social group experiences and dependent on that for progress) when such avenues exist.

    I may be having a hard time articulating the answer, but it is evident to me. There's more to an MMO than grouping for combat, just like there is more to combat itself than soloing, or grouping, or raiding. Just like there is more to the game itself than combat, or crafting or trading. 

    A person may rarely wish to group with others and yet would feel completely empty in the game without them, for reasons that others have listed better than I can. 

    • 1714 posts
    January 28, 2019 3:06 PM PST

    Tanix said:

    Keno Monster said:

    Kaeldorn said:

    Keno Monster said:

    It's a logical fallacy to suggest that a person who wants to solo in an MMO would be better of playing a single player game. There is WAY more to a multiplayer game than grouping. 

    It's not a logical fallacy to suggest that a person who prefers to play alone over joining others and doing things as a group would probably find better entertainment elsewhere.

    And that's the question that was asked in the original post. Which do you prefer.

    The suggestion isn't to tell anyone to leave Pantheon either. I enjoy single player games and play them just as much as multiplayer games, for different reasons. But if someone would rather not group up with people most of the time while playing an MMO that's basically like saying the game's primary focus (which most of the game's systems are going to be built around) is not as appealing to them. It just doesn't make sense to me. And neither do most of the modern MMO's that have shifted their focus away from the actual multiplayer experience to provide a better solo experience.

    Yes, it is. You're making a black and white statement. A player may prefer soloing but still love the other social aspects of the game. They may love bartering, they may love crafting and selling their wares to other people, they may love roleplaying and chatting with other people. They may love being in a persistant living world with other people and yet not wish to spend the majority of their time grouping with them. 

     

    Except in the case of that poster, previous discussion has already eluded to the fact that they actually want content designed for solo play. So, if you want content designed for solo play and many single player games out there are designed around MMO open world, then... why come to this specific game and expect it cater to a single player need when its entire design goal is focused on the group based social games of the past where achievement required that social particpation to progress?

    If the only reasons is because the person wants to play a single player game in a chat room with others, well... it seems out of place if you ask me as there are better games to serve exactly that, why this one?

     

    Asking for some solo content because you like to solo is not the same thing as expecting the game to "cater" to you because you don't want to group. I like to spend time alone, by myself, I cherish it, yet I live in a huge city that is my home. These are not dissimilar things. 

    • 945 posts
    January 28, 2019 3:07 PM PST

    Tanix said:

    If you design content to be soloable, it means it has to be balanced so that all classes can solo it. This is how it is in a lot of other MMOs out there, this game is not the same, they are not specifically (to my knowledge) designing content to be beaten by a single player.

    This is not 100% true... EQ1 warriors, rogues and Clerics could not solo well at all.  And soloing was not "easy" for most classes.  Even the things that you could solo, you would be better off with a partner or two for safety and efficiency.  Just because you will be able to solo doesn't mean that the content will be trivialized.  The Overthere comes to mind in EQ/Kunark.  You COULD solo by kiting because this area was so large, but the risk of running into another add was super high and would force most classes to have to have to escape wasting a lot of progress/time.

    But as mentioned before, this is getting a bit off topic.

    • 127 posts
    January 28, 2019 3:09 PM PST

    Keno Monster said:

    Yes, it is. You're making a black and white statement. A player may prefer soloing but still love the other social aspects of the game. They may love bartering, they may love crafting and selling their wares to other people, they may love roleplaying and chatting with other people. They may love being in a persistant living world with other people and yet not wish to spend the majority of their time grouping with them. 

    The crafting and just exploring and enjoying a persistent world I can understand, though as Tanix pointed out, both of those aspects are very well done in a number of open world single player RPG's. You don't exactly need an MMO to engage in those sorts of activities. And often you get to have a much bigger impact on the story to boot.

    The moment you engage in activities such as bartering, roleplaying and hanging out with guild mates I feel like that can't really be called solo content any longer. You might not technically be in a group as you would be while dungeoneering and such, but it's still group content.

    Chatting with other players while playing.. yes, I'll concede that one. There are options in single player games (such as forums, social media, and sometimes even friends lists at whatever digital store you bought a game from), but that doesn't really compete with in-game chat functionality. That alone wouldn't be enough reason to invest in an MMO for its solo content for me, but I suppose it could be for others.

    • 1714 posts
    January 28, 2019 3:16 PM PST

    Kaeldorn said:

    Keno Monster said:

    Yes, it is. You're making a black and white statement. A player may prefer soloing but still love the other social aspects of the game. They may love bartering, they may love crafting and selling their wares to other people, they may love roleplaying and chatting with other people. They may love being in a persistant living world with other people and yet not wish to spend the majority of their time grouping with them. 

    The crafting and just exploring and enjoying a persistent world I can understand, though as Tanix pointed out, both of those aspects are very well done in a number of open world single player RPG's. You don't exactly need an MMO to engage in those sorts of activities. And often you get to have a much bigger impact on the story to boot.

     



    If I need to explain the difference that people experience between a single player game and a multi player game, regardless of whether or not they want to group in the MP game, I...well I can't. It is something that is just so obvious to me and I'm more than a little surprised that people are pulling the "go play a single player game" card when there is obviously so much more to it than that. 

    • 1714 posts
    January 28, 2019 3:17 PM PST

     

    Tanix said:

    If you design content to be soloable, it means it has to be balanced so that all classes can solo it. This is how it is in a lot of other MMOs out there, this game is not the same, they are not specifically (to my knowledge) designing content to be beaten by a single player.

    That's a really really weird statement to see from an EQ vet. 

    • 1033 posts
    January 28, 2019 3:17 PM PST

    dorotea said:

    ((Why Pantheon? Why, after reading the design goals and tenants of this game do you feel this is the right choice considering your expectations and what is currently available on the market? ))

     

    Why does someone that didn't play EQ for more than an hour and finds grouping desirable but not entirely *necessary* find Pantheon so alluring? Because Pantheon offers the hope of many things going way way beyond nostalgia for EQ and an improved grouping experience. You will actually agree with me on most of this. Please note I am not taking the time to put these in order of importance.

     

     

     

     

    Pantheon will offer a very slow and deliberate path to maximum level. It will not take a day as in some MMOs. It will not take  two or three weeks as in LOTRO (fairly long days to do it that fast). It will take months or years.

    Part of that slow leveling in EQ was due to the fact that soloing was at a premium. Not every class could do it and a lot of classes had numerous trials of skill to even effectively do it. You have already stated that you object to soloing simply being a result of clever skilled game play by others. You specifically argued that the game should design specifically to allow classes to solo. How do you achieve a very slow and gradual leveling process when you design content for soloing? You can't make the exp worthy of anything or the "months and years" becomes "days and weeks" for everyone. You can't make the items that drop from soloing worthy of a group, so then what purpose will it serve to solo? If your only point is to go through the actions of soloing for no worth while cause, fine.. they can put a bunch of mobs in the game that drop nothing and provide near nothing in exp, but.. can be solo'd. If you allow anything more than that, solo mobs will be an abuse.

     

     

     

    dorotea said:

    Pantheon will offer much more challenge than is typical. Leveling will be difficult not merely slow. It will be possible to die while leveling even at lower levels - in fact it will be highly likely. And lest you go back to the solo versus group debate - solo play well designed is every bit as dangerous and challenging as group play well designed. Etc. No Rift-like any class can do anything. No FFXIV-like any one character can do everything.

    Solo play by its very nature will be designed to be beaten by the average class and player. This means, the content will be easy, extremely easy. In EQ, some group content was solo'd, it was difficult and challenging because it was designed for groups. You are saying "solo" content "designed" for solo players will be the same as group content. It won't, by the basic princpals of game play it won't. That is why from what I read in that statement they are not saying "this is solo content", they are saying "people will be able to solo, some better than others". I think you are mistaken on what they are designing.

    This is the very purpose of solo games, to design content for the solo player, which you have specifically argued for in previous discussions between you and I.

     

     

    dorotea said:

    Pantheon will reward success and penalize failure - death will be much more than a minor inconvenience. Pantheon will have distinct roles with little or no overlap - tanks will be better at tanking by far than any other class and will be *needed* for that role. Healers will be better at healing by far than any other class and will be *needed* for that role.

    Except that is not what I have seen or heard. They have stated roles, but they have not claimed a line that nobody can cross. Some classes in some situations will be able to tank, some will CC using emergent tactics even though they are not a "CC class" and others will do things outside of their proclaimed roles. This is how EQ was and I was under the impression this game would be, if they have hard lined the roles so much where there is no clever use of tactics to achieve goals outside of "The Role", then this game will have missed its entire mark of what EQ was.

    That said, many solo games (or games like solo games) have exactly what you are talking about and this was the point I was asking concerning your comments.

     

    dorotea said:

      Pantheon will have far more elaborate and better crafting than one sees in these benighted days. It may be as good as Vanguard was. It may even be better. Pantheon will have a wide variety of classes many of which are attractive and that aren't just the same class with minor variations. Pantheon will have a wide variety of races that aren't just the same race with different skins. Pantheon will have slow travel and much exploration - the world will be something to enjoy not a minor inconvenience to bypass while leveling. Pantheon will quite likely have a more challenging and less convenient system of mail and markets. Pantheon will not be dominated by pvp even indirectly as some of the more attractive games now in development or recently released are. Pantheon will have guilds that are important and that have mechanics to support them more than other MMOs typically do.  Sorry for a long paragraph not broken out item by item as is my wont - this is all off-topic to the point of this thread so while I wanted to reply I wanted the reply to take a minimum of actual space. Pantheon will take many good features from the old days and use advances in the state of the art to make them better. In short - Pantheon is not a one trick pony. It is not only for those that like to group 24/7. Pantheon offers a large tent that more than one type of player can be delighted to take shelter under from the miserable weather that even the best current MMO unleashes on our unsheltered heads.

     

    Many of these things are provided in solo games, even games that are multiplayer survival games, so again.. why pantheon, a game specifically designed in the spirit of EQ and Vanguard to which their very essence is counter to what you mostly have argued for? I mean, I get the social, crafting, etc.... but I am confused on your points about difficulty and content as those are specifically attended to in many solo/small group games. /shrug

    • 1033 posts
    January 28, 2019 3:19 PM PST

    Darch said:

    Tanix said:

    If you design content to be soloable, it means it has to be balanced so that all classes can solo it. This is how it is in a lot of other MMOs out there, this game is not the same, they are not specifically (to my knowledge) designing content to be beaten by a single player.

    This is not 100% true... EQ1 warriors, rogues and Clerics could not solo well at all.  And soloing was not "easy" for most classes.  Even the things that you could solo, you would be better off with a partner or two for safety and efficiency.  Just because you will be able to solo doesn't mean that the content will be trivialized.  The Overthere comes to mind in EQ/Kunark.  You COULD solo by kiting because this area was so large, but the risk of running into another add was super high and would force most classes to have to have to escape wasting a lot of progress/time.

    But as mentioned before, this is getting a bit off topic.

     

    EQ content was not balanced for soloing. It was not designed for soloing, which is why some classes could to it better than others.

     

    If you design the content to be solo'd, you are now setting limits to take into consideration their ability to defeat it. This will naturally result in the content being toned down more than it would be if it was designed as group content.


    This post was edited by Tanix at January 28, 2019 3:20 PM PST
    • 1033 posts
    January 28, 2019 3:24 PM PST

    Keno Monster said:

    Tanix said:

    Keno Monster said:

    Kaeldorn said:

    Keno Monster said:

    It's a logical fallacy to suggest that a person who wants to solo in an MMO would be better of playing a single player game. There is WAY more to a multiplayer game than grouping. 

    It's not a logical fallacy to suggest that a person who prefers to play alone over joining others and doing things as a group would probably find better entertainment elsewhere.

    And that's the question that was asked in the original post. Which do you prefer.

    The suggestion isn't to tell anyone to leave Pantheon either. I enjoy single player games and play them just as much as multiplayer games, for different reasons. But if someone would rather not group up with people most of the time while playing an MMO that's basically like saying the game's primary focus (which most of the game's systems are going to be built around) is not as appealing to them. It just doesn't make sense to me. And neither do most of the modern MMO's that have shifted their focus away from the actual multiplayer experience to provide a better solo experience.

    Yes, it is. You're making a black and white statement. A player may prefer soloing but still love the other social aspects of the game. They may love bartering, they may love crafting and selling their wares to other people, they may love roleplaying and chatting with other people. They may love being in a persistant living world with other people and yet not wish to spend the majority of their time grouping with them. 

     

    Except in the case of that poster, previous discussion has already eluded to the fact that they actually want content designed for solo play. So, if you want content designed for solo play and many single player games out there are designed around MMO open world, then... why come to this specific game and expect it cater to a single player need when its entire design goal is focused on the group based social games of the past where achievement required that social particpation to progress?

    If the only reasons is because the person wants to play a single player game in a chat room with others, well... it seems out of place if you ask me as there are better games to serve exactly that, why this one?

     

    Asking for some solo content because you like to solo is not the same thing as expecting the game to "cater" to you because you don't want to group. I like to spend time alone, by myself, I cherish it, yet I live in a huge city that is my home. These are not dissimilar things. 

     

    It is if the game is not designed around such. As I said, read the FAQ, they don't say they are making solo content, they said that some classes will be able to solo. In EQ, they didn't design solo content, rather some classes were able to do it at different levels and under different conditions.

     

    That poster was not arguing that case as we had already established this in previous discussion. They were asking specifically for "solo content" and arguing its case. That is expecting the game to "cater" to a very limited scope of expectation.

    • 1033 posts
    January 28, 2019 3:25 PM PST

    Keno Monster said:

     

    Tanix said:

    If you design content to be soloable, it means it has to be balanced so that all classes can solo it. This is how it is in a lot of other MMOs out there, this game is not the same, they are not specifically (to my knowledge) designing content to be beaten by a single player.

    That's a really really weird statement to see from an EQ vet. 

    I can't read your mind, you will have to explain yourself.

    I will make the effort to explain though regardless.

     

    You can't call content "solo content" if you don't design it for all classes to solo. It isn't solo content then, it is content that "some" may be able to solo, but it is not "solo content". MMOs today build games specifically to have solo content. They design it at a level that all classes can defeat it, making it "solo content". This is why WoW for instance started removing their "elite" mobs throughout the open world on many revamps, because... they were making the world "soloable" as while some classes could defeat the group content, not all classes could, so... they made the content "solable" for all.

     

    EQ did not have solo content. It was "group content" to which some classes could solo through clever application of thier skills/abilties and strategy.

     

    Do you understand now?


    This post was edited by Tanix at January 28, 2019 3:31 PM PST