Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Non-combat oriented spells/abilities

    • 78 posts
    January 17, 2019 1:04 PM PST

     

    Part of the magic EQ gave me was due to the fact that my character is not trained for combat only but there are far more important things in the world of Norrath that requires us to think outside the combat box. Spells and abilities like Teleportation, Summon Corpse, Summon Food, Tracking, Casting Light, True North, Speed Buffs, See Invis, Invisbility, Floating, Water Breathing, Shrink and SO MANY other spells really made us shape ourselves towards the world and try to over come the world itself. The problem with MMOs in the last 15 years is that almost EVERY ability is designed for combat or fighting, this just gets boring. I hope Pantheon is going to bring back this essential approach to design philosophy and even expands on it.

     

    I know for certain combat abilities are not just 90% damage since the guys in VR are focusing on things like support, CC, Feign Death and other very cool combat oriented utilities which, again, many games don't have. I'm tired of looking at my abilities and they are all just a different shade of PRESS BUTTON FOR DAMAGE.

     

    I want my adventure in the world would cater to my class/racial abilities as much as my combat oriented adventures cater to my class/racial abilities. I have no doubt VR have plans for that but I wish we'd get some more information about these things.

     

    • 127 posts
    January 17, 2019 1:45 PM PST

    Very much in agreement. Especially in pen & paper games I'll very often create characters with lots of out of combat utility. Skills/abilities for stealth, languages, diplomacy, information gathering or even physically oriented skills with non-combat usages are all very appealing because they provide alternative ways to solve problems. Climbing already exists.. so that's pretty good.

    The potential to apply these easily and often to make them relevant is already there with the perception triggers system. There can be checks on having a certain level of skill or having a certain spell or ability on your bar to activate a trigger, or an investigation can succeed or fail depending on your skill vs the threshold.

    Although for this to work, it is important that you can't simply train all non-combat skills to the cap and the spells/abilities aren't just freebies you'll collect either way. Choices should be meaningful. Something like a cap on the number of skill points across all non-combat skills combined, based on your level, would do the trick. And spells and abilities could be made mutually exclusive by awarding them through opposing faction quest lines, or having spells that are only available if you serve a certain deity as your patron/matron or something like that.

    I do not like tying everything to your chosen class. It just leads to everyone of the same class being almost identical, which is dull.


    This post was edited by Kaeldorn at January 17, 2019 1:58 PM PST
    • 124 posts
    January 18, 2019 1:04 AM PST

    ahh yeah, the good old days of sitting in a group spamming random text to learn the elven or troll languages. i agree there should be something for this in the immersion, but definitely in another way than simply spamming it.

    Terrain and the world should be your friend and your enemy i completely agree. Levitation to get over mountain ridges or make you able to actually 'climb' it because you are essentially weightless are good starts, and maybe if you have a spell like enduring breath it would still require you to raise your swimming skill to be able to use it? Maybe add swimming skill in the mix when going to certain depths of water where pressure (or toxidity) starts being a factor?

    Can't wait to read additional idea's and takes on this.

    • 510 posts
    January 18, 2019 7:13 AM PST

    The Dead Alewives D&D - classic stuff.  Gotta listen to it...

    • 3852 posts
    January 18, 2019 7:38 AM PST

    I agree. 

    Nice to have a large and complex world that goes beyond the traditional "Travel the world, meet exotic and exciting people, and kill them".

    • 1399 posts
    January 18, 2019 9:51 AM PST

    Laura said:

    I want my adventure in the world would cater to my class/racial abilities as much as my combat oriented adventures cater to my class/racial abilities. I have no doubt VR have plans for that but I wish we'd get some more information about these things.

    They have given us some. Check the Classes page. 

    Druid for example...

     

    Vinewoven Bridge

    You form a bridge out of interlocking vines, allowing you and others to cross a gap that is too wide to jump across.


    This post was edited by Zorkon at January 18, 2019 9:51 AM PST
    • 287 posts
    January 18, 2019 10:26 AM PST

    Couldn't agree more.  In EQ, the earth elemental illusion was the whole reason I rolled an Enchanter.  That spell provided endless amusement for me and I ended up switching my main to the Enchanter for other reasons but the illusion was definitely a big green checkmark in favor of that class.

    The other illusions were also useful as well as amusing as were several other spells and abilities of that class and others.  Not everything needs to be a major part of a class. We need a variety of skills to use both useful and not.

    • 1033 posts
    January 21, 2019 1:44 PM PST

    Most of those types of spells were removed with demands for "convience" unfrotunately. This is why it is EXTREMELY imortant for people to consider and evaluate game play in detail. Look to food/water being a requirement in play, remove that need and you removed the spells that provided such. Look at being able to see at night and in dungeons... remove that need, and you remove various spells/abilities like infravision/sonicvision/ultravision. The list goes on and you can get very intricate in the various needs based on game design to which spells/abilities offer remedy.


    The point is, this is complexity in play, depth in game systems, etc... BUT... there are many who see such as an "inconvenience" to their play, which is why many of these types of game systems have been removed over the years.


    I mean, we can't make people "unhappy" or "frustrated" in play right? Isn't the point of a game to have fun at every moment you are playing? /sarc

     

     

     

    • 999 posts
    January 23, 2019 6:32 PM PST

    @Laura

    Agreed, and I had a post years ago now on this forum stating a simialr request.  Even if they went the VG route of having balanced roles versus EQ style of cleric complete heal, etc. I was hoping that they would offer utility in D&D style skills.  Warrior bashes damaged walls and/or breaks open locked chests (with a chance of ruining contents) or a rogue could pick-lock the chest protecting them, etc along with the type of utility spells you listed.

    @Tanix

    Good post and I'd add it was due to players wanting classes perfectly balanced as well.  Many of the utility spells/skills that were offered in the D&D type mold made classes more unique, and, today, classes are nearly identical in every MMO I try with different skill names (usually as they revolve around PvP or soloing balance).

    Also, it's easier to have a treadmill design for developers rather than develop content around the need for utility as well.

     

    • 3852 posts
    January 24, 2019 7:49 AM PST

    Tanix - good points.

    Pantheon will surely have more annoyances and pain than many MMOs as that is one of the core objectives though they do not *quite* put it like that. The death penalty being a classic example.

    There are many mechanisms which can be described as either wonderfully old school ways to give realism and compexity to the world or, if you are less positively inclined, royal pains in the posterior adding nothing and making the game a confusing montage of strategy micromanagement.

    Need to eat or drink or both lest you weaken and ultimately even perish. Go down to the bottom level, kill the Balrog, fight your way up and die from hunger two steps from the exit. Done that many times.

    Need to manage bows/bolts/throwing weapons - run out and you are in real trouble - carry the wrong type for the enemy you face and you are in real trouble.

    Weight and encumbrance. The agony of getting that wonderfully valuable drop at last - but the sucker is heavy and to keep it you need to leave your pants behind and fight your way back to a safe place in your undies. Is it worth the possible death penalty?

    Some of this is off-topic since the thread is about non-combat features but the overall approach to realism/complexity carries over.

     


    This post was edited by dorotea at January 24, 2019 7:49 AM PST