Nephretiti said:I once held the Lower Guk list on Mithaniel Marr in EQ for like 18 hours. I don't think I can do that anymore. Of course, that was a notepad and pencil on the desk next to me. No apps back then.
I'd have to say this was a big gripe in EQ1 grouping. It was even more terrible when you were a Bard (already pressing way more buttons than any other class, simultaneously charming, mezing, hasting, slowing)... pulling, and then having to not only keep a written list of people that are spamming you with tells but reply to them with ETA's or when their place was coming up next... or if that person isn't online because its been over an hour look for the next person(s) that have also moved on; meanwhile there's a wizard sitting in your group seemingly AFK, "meditating" and nobody else wants to take the responsibility. Grouping felt more like "work" than "play" for some of us in that game. And the worst part of that (for me) was having to deal with excluding certain classes even though the person had been waiting longer for a group because we "needed" to replace the healer before inviting the 6 others ahead of them...
So in summary, what bothered me the "most" would be having to exclude (or be excluded) from a group because of the race/class someone chose. This will absolutely happen in PRotF if group formation is solely dependent upon player interaction. I know this because this has been identified as one of the primary ways the devs expect the players to "police" bad behavior (social pressure/bullying/exclusion/blacklisting)... this will of course be used in ways other than expected.
Grimseethe said:DracoKalen said:Unfun people. If I wanted a lot of rules and to be told what to do I would not have left the military.
Being asked to fill in guild notes and not be foolish isnt asking too much.
You wont be able to raid if you hate rules so much.
I'm not sure if there's some history between you guys or something but it doesn't necessarily look like a reply to your post. At least that's not what I meant by quoting it. Honestly your guild doesn't sound like a guild for me but luckily we get to pick one that suits us, right? I know I've raided in guilds that weren't about rules and all that boring stuff, we just played and had fun.
Not to diss you and your preferences of course, there's room for different kinds of guilds and I'm sure there are others that feel like you that'd like that kind of atmosphere.
So this is a really interesting thread. I think I agree with almost everything everyone has posted so far. There's an entire set of group etiquette which is kind of lost knowledge among the general gaming population these days. Things like communicating and working out who's doing what before you start pulling or moving, setting up loot in a way that everyone agrees with, being respectful to the other members and giving them a heads up when you're going to have to log soon, and/or helping to find replacements for your spot.
All os forum people remember that stuff and think about it (for Pantheon) but the vast majority of gamers have either never had to do it, or it's been so long that they've sort of forgotten that they should.
When Pantheon launches - heck, when it enters Alpha, this is going to have to be something that the players collectively are going to have to relearn how to do. I always have to remind myself that the vast majority of people who will play Pantheon won't ever see these discussions we're having now. By the time they start paying attention to the forums, if they even do, all this stuff will be way back in the archives.
So that makes me think that maybe we as a community should really pull together and make something that can help people learn how to group nicely and effectively in Pantheon. Maybe a video, made during alpha, that talks about group etiquette - Do's and Dont's. Not the minutiae, not telling people "here's how you should set up your roles in group" although I'm certain some people will try to do that anyway. But more about the big stuff, the things that we kind of all agree on.
I dunno, it's just a thought. Anyone with a YouTube channel up for the challenge?
Spluffen said:Grimseethe said:DracoKalen said:Unfun people. If I wanted a lot of rules and to be told what to do I would not have left the military.
Being asked to fill in guild notes and not be foolish isnt asking too much.
You wont be able to raid if you hate rules so much.I'm not sure if there's some history between you guys or something but it doesn't necessarily look like a reply to your post. At least that's not what I meant by quoting it. Honestly your guild doesn't sound like a guild for me but luckily we get to pick one that suits us, right? I know I've raided in guilds that weren't about rules and all that boring stuff, we just played and had fun.
Not to diss you and your preferences of course, there's room for different kinds of guilds and I'm sure there are others that feel like you that'd like that kind of atmosphere.
Nope not about him. The fact he gets defensive means his guild is not for me either. I have to document at work not gonna do it and call it fun for sure!
People whose alts can always use what just dropped.
People that play wasted and can't figure out why you're rolling for that warrior axe when you're a rogue...except, really, you're a warrior but they will argue with you.
People that feel the need to tell you how to play your class, especially when they play theirs poorly.
People playing gnomes and acting like what they have to say is of any interest. Those people need to realize they are only placeholders in a group until something else, anything, is available to take that spot.
I think this is an issue best addressed by joining a guild or managing your in game friends well. Solo, you run across loads of issues with group play. No one is consistent and you end up with bad groups. Always make lots of support (or healer friends) damage friends come and go.
Nephele said:So that makes me think that maybe we as a community should really pull together and make something that can help people learn how to group nicely and effectively in Pantheon. Maybe a video, made during alpha, that talks about group etiquette - Do's and Dont's. Not the minutiae, not telling people "here's how you should set up your roles in group" although I'm certain some people will try to do that anyway. But more about the big stuff, the things that we kind of all agree on.
I dunno, it's just a thought. Anyone with a YouTube channel up for the challenge?
I think this isn't such a bad idea. Ofcourse people will eventually follow their own rules no matter what. But a code of conduct on the general topics, one that could even be followed by GM's wouldn't be a waste of time.
People who:
The list goes on, and none of them are absolute deal breakers (I won't necessarily kick someone from a group for it, unless they become troublesome).It is probably one of the reasons why I tend to favor playing with my friends, adding people to our circle over time to build a guild than simply joining random guilds.
SoWplz said: In general I would disrespectful people to the group. Yes if you are the healer and you are getting ready to leave soon, let the group know and offer to find a replacement fr yourself. And likewise if you know half the group is leaving in 10 mins, let me know that before you invite me to group and make me run all the way there.
Just interested, but do you expect a person leaving the group to be responsible for finding a replacement? Maybe I read that wrong, but that is what it appears you are saying?
I would not say RESPONSIBLE. But it is a good gesture to reach out to a few people of the same class, or same role. To me that is looking out for the group as a whole. Not just I got my xp, or loot and I'm out of here. Or if the player can at least hang until replacement get there. I understand this can not always happen, but you can tell when a player is just getting his and moving on.
Since so many groups have different standards, I think it’s important when joining a PUG to determine rules of the group beforehand. This is especially important when a group is formed to get a specific item for a specific person. If someone asks to PUG your group, they need to know ahead of time that the item is reserved for a specific player. If they don’t like the rules, they don’t have to join.
What annoys me the most is when the group rules are agreed to in advance, no matter how bizarre they are, and the PUG violates them. They knew the rules in advance. They did not have to join. They agreed to the rules. Yet, they still violate.
SoWplz said:I would not say RESPONSIBLE. But it is a good gesture to reach out to a few people of the same class, or same role. To me that is looking out for the group as a whole. Not just I got my xp, or loot and I'm out of here. Or if the player can at least hang until replacement get there. I understand this can not always happen, but you can tell when a player is just getting his and moving on.
Fair enough, and I agree it is a postive and good gesture, showing one doesn't take the group for granted.
Beefcake said:Since so many groups have different standards, I think it’s important when joining a PUG to determine rules of the group beforehand. This is especially important when a group is formed to get a specific item for a specific person. If someone asks to PUG your group, they need to know ahead of time that the item is reserved for a specific player. If they don’t like the rules, they don’t have to join.
What annoys me the most is when the group rules are agreed to in advance, no matter how bizarre they are, and the PUG violates them. They knew the rules in advance. They did not have to join. They agreed to the rules. Yet, they still violate.
Agreed. In the groups I run, it is NBG (not simply button spam, but the player has to explain it to the group on key important drops ) and that need is organized via specifics established at the start of the group. When a new member approaches a group, that previous agreement is held, and the new player is tacked on to the end of it. If they group agrees, a new player (depending on need) "may" get priority, but only if the groups sees it as such.
One thing I never allow when there is someone with a "legitimate" need to the item (ie they honestly are going to use it primairly) is for others to say "well, I can sell it on the bazaar/AH giving me money to where I can eventually buy the item I want, so I need it as well". Those requests are not accepted unless the entire group is of such a mind. I know some will try to cheat such by lying and then later selling it (even admitting later they did so), but I have ran into those, to which... they get black listed (I was a monk who pulled for multiple guilds back in EQ and when a player did this, I black listed them among all those guilds, another reason why player trade while actively present is important).
Point is, honesty and reputation matters.
Tanix said:Point is, honesty and reputation matters.
That pretty much sums it all up. I will give anyone a chance. But, once you prove unworthy, you will not PUG in my group again.
Porygon said:People unwilling to take advice on how to play their class.
My brother-in-law was the worst at this. In EQ2 raids, his DPS was half the other Bards. He would constantly interrupt his auto-attacks and use the wrong delay weapons. But, he refused to listen because he played a bard in EQ a decade ago, therefore he knows everything about playing an EQ2 bard.
Nephele said:So this is a really interesting thread. I think I agree with almost everything everyone has posted so far. There's an entire set of group etiquette which is kind of lost knowledge among the general gaming population these days. Things like communicating and working out who's doing what before you start pulling or moving, setting up loot in a way that everyone agrees with, being respectful to the other members and giving them a heads up when you're going to have to log soon, and/or helping to find replacements for your spot.
All os forum people remember that stuff and think about it (for Pantheon) but the vast majority of gamers have either never had to do it, or it's been so long that they've sort of forgotten that they should.
When Pantheon launches - heck, when it enters Alpha, this is going to have to be something that the players collectively are going to have to relearn how to do. I always have to remind myself that the vast majority of people who will play Pantheon won't ever see these discussions we're having now. By the time they start paying attention to the forums, if they even do, all this stuff will be way back in the archives.
So that makes me think that maybe we as a community should really pull together and make something that can help people learn how to group nicely and effectively in Pantheon. Maybe a video, made during alpha, that talks about group etiquette - Do's and Dont's. Not the minutiae, not telling people "here's how you should set up your roles in group" although I'm certain some people will try to do that anyway. But more about the big stuff, the things that we kind of all agree on.
I dunno, it's just a thought. Anyone with a YouTube channel up for the challenge?
Can start already using some clips from devs themselves!
1. Kilsin training, and then trying to hide- with all the dev comments while they are playing, that could be pointed to humorously for importance of death penalty and what it means (general PITA for other group members or other groups you dont know at entrance).
2. Aradune running into the boss room and the door slammed on him and Jim lee and everyone laughing- Aradune saying "hey, i'm tanking the boss"- that could be pointed to humorously for importance of communication. (plus it has the bonus of the lead game director making mistakes like any player could)
3. All-star stream and chanter "face-pulling" and all dying or almost dying to a rat- that could be pointed to humorously for importance of class roles and group strategy (plus be bonus shout-outs for streamers)
4. first look at BRK ramparts with community spotlight and group dynamics - that could be pointed to for importance of establishing etiquette (do we loot corpses while fighting is going on? who pulls? who is MT?)
Porygon said:People unwilling to take advice on how to play their class.
But also, people that insist that because you don't play the same way as they do (when they play your class), you are doing it wrong.
I have had experiences where:
The healer said "either the enchanter stops pulling or I am outta here. Enchanters dont pull."
Some groupmate says "Why is your CHA so high? You should be maxing on INT. THAT is why your DPS isnt as high as the wizards."
Someone says "Why do we even have an Enchanter? No one mezzes anything anymore - we should just burn everything down. If we get rid of the Enchanter we can replace them with someone with some REAL DPS."
Another thing that REALLY bothers me are folks that won't aid you on your quest updates. IMHO, when a group starts the leader should say something like "I have 5 quests that have updates in this dungeon so we will be hitting these five points. DOES ANYONE ELSE HAVE UPDATES HERE?" and then every attempt should be made to aide in everyones updates. All too often these days I see folks getting their updates and then leaving. "Oops! Sorry! Guild needs me! I gotta go!" No warning - just gone. In the same breath I will admit to no warning due to RL issues. I am insulin dependant diabetic. Sometimes I HAVE to stop playing long enough to take meds and/or eat. So how long do we give someone before kicking/replacing?
Nephretiti said:So how long do we give someone before kicking/replacing?
That depends on the group. Anyone who afks frequently, e.g. a parent getting up repeatedly to check on / take care of a small child, probably shouldn't be grouping at all. It's inconsiderate to the other group members. But as to frequency and duration of breaks getting someone dropped from a group, that's really up to the group. I've seen anything from "max 2 minutes, everyone go now" type breaks to "I need to afk for the 9th time for 10 minutes, biab" and not have the group break up. I've also seen someone take their 3rd afk in an hour and get ninja-replaced before they get back. If there is any kind of standard I'm not familiar with it.
Personally, frequent breaks that don't coincide with medding time are a big annoyance. But if you can take care of your business without inconveniencing the group, go for it (just say something so everyone knows. And be prepared to loot your corpse if something wanders near while you're afk). /shrug