I am so excited about Pantheon that I actually started playing EQ P1999 to help ease the pain of waiting (for those who don't know, P1999 is a free to play version of EQ with just the Kunark and Velious expansions).
EQ is still amazing to this day, but playing it again has reminded me of one of the biggest issues I had with grouping in EQ and as Pantheon is taking making aspects from the original EQ, including the grouping system, I think this is relevant.
Pantheon, like EQ, will have a trinity+CC group model. Meaning most successful groups will have a tank, healer, DPS + Crowd Control. Together, the group can do incredible things, but remove one of those pieces, and the whole thing falls apart. Because of this, I feel its bad mannered to leave a group without at least trying to replace yourself, or replace yourself a little earlier if it means you're not leaving the group short handed.
For example... Yesterday I was in a group with a cleric healer. Another healer had entered the dungeon and was looking for a group for over an hour before finally giving up and logging.
About 10 minutes after that cleric left, the cleric in my group said "Thanks for the group, got to go now". My group was then left with no healer and we ultimately disbanded after not finding a replacement.
Now I understand sometimes in life, things comes up and you have to leave without a moments notice. That's fine. But people leaving without notice or replacement seems to be the rule, not the exception in EQ. Anyways that's my number 1 issue with grouping in old school MMOs. Nothing to be done really, but wanted to vent.
What's your biggest problem with grouping?
I don't think I ever found my own replacement, but if I knew some someone looking I would inform the group leader, and let them contact them. IMO, THEY are the ones that will have to be with the person for the next x number of hours, so they should decide who to include or exclude.
Now, the other side of this is that I will give the group notice that I need to leave at xx:xx time, usually at least 60 minutes before, so they can begin watching/looking for a replacement. Many times I have had a group say they have someone on the way, long before my time was up, and I offered to swap out once they arrived if the group wanted.
People who feel the need to loot the vast majority of corpses before the rest of the group, especially while still in combat.
Related thread on grouping/etiquette: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/7368/etiquette/view/page/1
I usually find myself as being the person putting groups together since most people actually don't want to go through the social effort (which is funny, considering it's a social game). When I'm leaving, though, it's up to the group to carry on. I'll give a warning when I'm nearing the end of wanting to group (usually 30 minutes, but sometimes 60 depending), but other than that it's up to the others to figure out who's replacing me.
As for pet peeves, my biggest issue is pulling (particularly if I'm tanking). This needs to be figured out before things get going, and there needs to be agreement. I'm particularlyl thinking of newer games, including EQ2, where the tank did the majority of pulling (not sure how this will look in Pantheon, but even if there are other classes taking on a pulling role sometimes, e.g. Monk, it needs to be cleared with everyone first so people know what's going on). It is extremely frustrating when a group is finding a good pace and someone decides to pull extra when I'm not expecting it, especially when that often results in a wipe. So, I guess that can be reduced down into communication of roles beforehand, and having group members respect who's doing which thing. It's smoother that way, and is much more efficient in the end with less unexpected frustrations.
Oh wow ya that thread is exactly what Im talking about. Although the author said "in Eq and it was nearly time for you to leave it was customary for you to Find a replacment before you Left"
Honestly besides me, and a couple other people I've met, out of hundreds... have actually gone through the trouble of finding a replacement
Probably AFK people. Sometimes in EQ, due to long med times, casters were looking afk most of the time. But since you couldn't see their MP bar, you didn't know if they were medding, slacking or both.
I basically dislike underplayers, not in the sense of beeing not "on top notch", but simply not playing their role in the team.
I usually don't have issues with grouping because I have made a habit of starting my own groups and clearly communicating what our goals and expectations will be. Part of that includes letting people know that they should give me a 20-30 minute heads-up prior to leaving so that I can find them a replacement. That doesn't always happen but when you set that as an expectation when the group is formed, there is a high likelihood that people will follow through with it. The only real issue I can think of when it comes to grouping is having to spend long periods of time looking for a specific class. I dealt with this in FFXI but at the end of the day, I miss it.
Combat was balanced incredibly well and it really paid to know what kind of classes synergized with others or offered extra value in the area we would be hunting in. I remember spending an hour, sometimes two, looking to put together that perfectly well-rounded group. It was always worth the wait because once we started adventuring, the synergy was highly noticeable and people rarely wanted to leave. A lot of the players in FFXI spoke Japanese so we were limited to a language translator when it came to socializing. I still feel that the majority of my favorite grouping sessions were found in that game. True player interdependence and emphasis on the quaternity will be a huge difference maker for me in Pantheon.
As long as group leaders have a variety of options when it comes to looting, that should never be an issue. Loot rules should be communicated at the beginning of the group alongside the goals and expectations.
most of the above...
if a group game like EQ/Pantheon you should let the group know that you are leaving in 30+ minutes and let them ask guildies etc to fill the spot or ask them if they want me to try and replace myself.
Don't do what the Cleric did. sit there and ignore the heal LFG and then basically ninja log 5 min later.
2. people looting everything while the group is still fighting.
3. people who loot everything instead of letting others have a little 'junk' to sell.
4. People who want Need Before Greed in a PUG group. Need before greed is for friends and guild groups. Why would I ever go to Lower Guk and help camp a warrior item if I know that every single time one drops, the warrior (tank) leaves and then I have to wait til THAT tank also gets one, then he leaves to etc etc etc. in other words, I get to heal people for 6 hours without ever getting any loot at all. If I get to loot the tank sword, then I can sell it so that I can get a Mace instead. No. i am not a loot whore, I just think loot should be something everyone has a chance at. Not JUST the warrior.
5. Groups that don't have any rules. If I have been healing a group for 4 hours without leaving and I haven't won a single item in rolls, that new wizard that joined the group 4 seconds before the named mob spawns, should NOT be able to loot named item drops until others get an item. Most groups should set a designated order (random 1-6 to see who gets the item 1st, 2nd etc) and then if anyone leaves, the replacement is put at the bottom of the list. Most people would be ok with this because they are in line to get something, and if anyone leaves, they move up that list faster.
6. Elitists, ninja looters, ninja loggers.
I just want people to group up, set up a few rules and have fun. it's really not that hard.
Only thing I don't like are botters, multi-boxers, and people who go AFK to intentionally leech XP.
Most of the time, now, in any MMO, I'm in a guild, so making or getting a group is generally painless. And even if it's not a full group, at least you're having fun with people you know and hang out with regularly.
PUGs are just so risky, I have developed a real bias against them. In guild groups everyone splits everything and whoever actually needs an item gets it, everything else is greed and loot is the last consideration. Quite the opposite in PUGs.
However, in the past, my primary make or break deal feature for guilds was: Are the guild leaders, class leaders, actual leaders, are they online, daily, to lead or join groups? If not, I'm out. If they're not going to play daily, I will go and find players that do. I understand reasonable absenteeism, but as soon as the leadership is away, the drama starts, and I have no time for that. I've seen guilds where the leadership logs on only for raids, and again, a great reason to leave, for me, these days.
As Flapp said above: " I just want people to group up, set up a few rules and have fun. it's really not that hard. " I've even joined no-raid guilds in the past, because the players know the entire game, except raids, better, and are typically far more laid back, and have more characters to fill a group. I've also seen non-raiders consume challenging group content with vastly more skill than raiders, because they're not so specialized. Good times.
lack of communication. If I join a PuG and suddenly 2 out of 4 go running off and start engaging a monster without saying anything, then the other three catch up training one in the meantime then I catch up- its hard to adapt to group dynamics quickly. Likewise if no one says anything about loot structure even if I ask.
Insistence on "needed" classes. I dont mind trying with what we have , and discovering where we can be sucessfull.
Joining a group for 10min then leaving, to join another group near by. At least stick it out for a while, you never know what could happen, or learn new tactics.
/troll on
I never have problems with groups, I just click my 'Looking For Dungeon' button. It automatically teleports me inside, finds me a full group...and the best part, I don't have to say a word or listen to anyone else at all. When its all over, I can just hit leave group and do it all over again!
/troll off
Trying to find a replacement for yourself was standard in early EQ. Similar to camp checks. Leaving a group suddenly without trying to find a replacement...or at least apologizing to the other group members for not being able to find a replacement is an easy "add to ignore list".
If reputation is going to matter like VR wants it to "new gamers" who never played first gen mmos during their prime back when rep mattered, are going to have to learn what that means...and if reputation ends up not mattering then pantheon won't work as designed.
For EQ1 i always felt responsible for my spot in the group, that also means leaving and finding a replacement if possible. This to me was mandatory and something i expected from other players as well. I am aware however that over time this attitude has changed and you basically had to deal with it. Didn't change me from following that same attitude however, so to this day i still don't like this. Same thing for EQ2 where this was even worse. Because if you're halfway an instanced dungeon this generally would mean you couldn't find a replacement.
Need before Greed, i am aware of the multiple points of view but i still believe it should apply for PUG too. Without this, you would get an imbalance from day 1 as no one really knows eachother. And i believe this could also be handled by game design by making variable loot tables and nameds dropping something usable for all classes wether it be money makers or actually usable items.
'push to talk' or use voicechat for regular groups. totally hate that, there is a chat system you can use, use it. Why am i saying this? because in an MMO you cannot expect everyone to understand english as well as the next person, let alone let me as a foreigner figure out and get attuned to your accent or you to mine. Chat completely bypasses that, if your grammar is somewhat ok, you will always figure it out. When using voice for non raid purposes, to me this means ill just hear more 'gibberish' and you will eventually get annoyed with me, not because i cannot heal or do dps, but simply cause i cannot understand you. Also chat gives me the ability to read it back multiple times instead of asking 'can you please repeat yourself, i didn't quite get that'.
But the thing i most hate, is a master looter logging off without splitting!
I agree with almost all of what was said above - hard to pick out the things I dislike most that people do - there are so many.
Probably two things near the top of my list are people leaving without notice and people looting before the fight is even over - one reason I advocate a default looting system that distributes cash to everyone and doesn't give the character that is first to a body any better chance to get any items on that body than anyone else in the group has. It isn't so much that it bothers me that greedy people get a bit more - though it does - but I've seen more than one wipe when people pay more attention to dead enemies than live ones.
Entitled people. Healers and tanks are the usual suspects and it's the healers more than the tanks. There is generally only one of each in a group so they develop an overinflated sense of importance. This leads to them believing that when an item drops that is usable by anyone that clearly they deserve it more than anyone else. They also tend to believe that they're in charge of everything since making them unhappy will result in the group disbanding because they'll leave. Everybody contributes to the group's success; None is more or less important than any other.
Full disclosure: I prefer utility classes (yay for the return of the Enchanter) but also play tanks and healers. I am all too aware of the problem above and strive to avoid it.
On par with entitlement, loot whores can ruin a grouping experience.
Below that:
I'm sure I could keep going for a while...
People who act like fools.
I dont now why but i cant tolerate nonsense when im gaming.
I also hate people who smoke weed, because they talk about weed and do poorly in raids.
People with stupid names also, like names that have numbers in them.
Whenever i make a guild i have a naming policy and i get so much **** from the community for it.
Finally people who cant follow the most basic orders, like filling in their guilds notes, in games like wow.
The ones I hate the most are the ones that roll DPS then insist on commenting on how the tank/healer are playing in a negative fashion. If you don't have the balls to do the hard jobs yourself then leave the guys who do alone. I'm not talking about making suggestions for groups to pull/skip or gearing and the like from someone on an alt giving friendly advice, I mean the "oh god why so slow", "learn to tank/heal", and that sort of garbage. Also DerPS that intentionally pull without me asking them to when I'm tanking.